Roe v Wade to be overturned!

[crazy^millman]

^^ This.  The authoritarians in both red and blue have created these issues to divide and conquer.  "You HAVE to vote for me so I can save you from THEM!"  They could actually solve the problems, but they won't.  They need the bogeymen to keep the populace scared and controllable.


If you believe that, you haven't understood what I said.  But let's explore that a bit, shall we?

If my parents had married someone else, if my dad died in one of his motorcycle racing crashes, or if my mom had died from her childhood illness, I wouldn't be here.  If their timing were a month different, I wouldn't be here, someone else would be.  No one would ever have known me, no one would miss me.  Do you mourn the untold quintillions of possible people that never came into existence?  Is it murder to not have absolutely as many children as possible?  If not, then we agree that it's acceptable to choose how many people come into existence, when, where, and which ones.  A zygote is not a person until it's capable of conscious thought, so terminating before that isn't killing a person, it's choosing not to create one.

Part #1 Yes it is all about division always has been always will be. We are all human begins and not al the same so there will always be it no matter what.

Part #2 Emotional black hole if I allow myself to think like that. Why even have charity or compassion for another person if we don't value one aspect of our existence and that is love for others? That is the other part of the whole thing is my prospective is not anyone else's. I may agree on certain aspects of things, but I am not like anyone else on this earth. No one is like me either. You have your idea about when  life begin and have mine. I can disagree with the way you see it just like I can disagree with how I see it. I don't have to agree with you to like you and vice versa. I let the hate of what people decisions are drive me then that is where conflict comes from. Hard thing to practice, but if we don't try to love others and think of others then we are just going to be a black hole of emotions which is what I try my hardest to just live life best I can and love others no matter their flaws because I know my flaws are bad or not worst than others. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Matthew Hajicek]

Yes, but let's love and care for the people who actually exist, who are capable of suffering, and address their needs, rather than force them to suffer for the sake of things that are not yet people.

It is because these issues are a matter of dispute that the government should stay out of them and let people decide for themselves.

[beej]

Yes, but let's love and care for the people who actually exist, who are capable of suffering, and address their needs, rather than force them to suffer for the sake of things that are not yet people.

It is because these issues are a matter of dispute that the government should stay out of them and let people decide for themselves.

At what point does a fetus become a person? This is a highly important question. At one point, black people were not considered a person. They were considered a 1/3 of a person for census issues, but had no actual governmental rights as a person, and they were treated horribly because of it, and of course now, no one would dispute that they are a person. But you are essentially using the chattel slavery argument for abortion in saying that the fetus is not a person. It is reverse reasoning, of course. No one would have ever thought that a black man was not a person in 1000 AD. It was decided they were not a person by people wanted the freedom to have slaves, so they picket a skin color and said, people of this particular skin color are not a person, and therefore have no rights.

fast forward to today and people want the right to abort a baby and so they use reverse reasoning to rationalize and say, "OK, so what's different about this person than me, that I can use to say they are not a person? AH! the umbilical cord! they have one and I don't! Therefore, if they have an umbilical cord attached, they are not a person and therefore have no rights.

A pro-life person says, the mother is a person, the baby is a person. They both deserve life. A pregnancy is a temporary hardship if the mother was not expecting it, but it can be remedied after the baby is born, through financial support or adoption or what not. That is a problem that needs solved. But a person has the right to life. and you are using non-sensical reasoning to to try and claim that a fetus, with it's own separate human DNA is not a human person.

[Matthew Hajicek]

At what point does a fetus become a person?

I've covered this, both here, and many times over on the other site.

A person has a mind.  Without a mind, there is no person, no entity, no being, just biology.

"The very beginnings of our higher brain structures only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16. Crucially, the co-ordinated brain activity required for consciousness does not occur until 24-25 weeks of pregnancy."

- https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-moment-a-baby-s-brain-starts-to-function-and-other-scientific-answers-on-abortion-1.3506968

If we try to claim that every clump of living cells has rights, then we get into all kinds of problems.  A growth of cancer has its own separate DNA, and is struggling to live in the host's body; is it murder to kill it?

It is not reverse reasoning; it's the only logical assessment.  Anything else is based on feelings; emotional "reasoning".  You start with your gut reaction and try to justify it.

You say nice words about supporting the baby after it's born, but those who push hardest to criminalize abortion are largely the same ones to try to cut welfare and villainize single mothers.

Bans don't work.  We know this.  Bans create black markets; in this case back alley abortions that kill women.  If we want to improve the situation, we need solutions other than bans.

Why not look to the root cause?  If we had significantly less economic disparity, it seems demand for abortions would diminish greatly.  Eliminate the root cause, rather than criminalizing the tool.

This is the same as gun control.  Significantly reduce economic disparity and violent crime all but disappears.  No need to ban the tool.

But the oligarchs do not want to solve the problems; they need the problems, so that we look to them to save us.  A content citizenry is much harder to control and manipulate.  Don't buy in to the propaganda.

[Matthew Hajicek]

If you dispute my assertion about what makes a person a person, let's explore that a bit.

What makes a person a person?

Is it being alive?  As pointed out above, bacteria are alive, so that's not it.

Is it being alive and having human DNA?  The billions of skin cells I shed every day meet that bar, and we don't mourn them, so no.

Is it being alive, having human DNA and being capable of becoming a full human being?  Every one of those skin cells meets that bar.  Put it in the right nurturing environment, with the right nutrition and hormones, and it becomes a clone, a full human being.  So that's a no.


Let's start at the other end; if you start with a person, and you remove things until you no longer have a person, where is the line?  You can remove limbs and still have a person.  You can alter their DNA and still have a person.  You can stop their heart and still have a person, so long as the brain is kept functional.  Let the brain die, or damage it enough that it stops working, and you have a brain dead vegetable, which most people would no longer consider to be a person.  Once all hope of the brain recovering is lost, it is allowed to die, and that is not a crime.

And there it is; it's the functional brain, capable of conscious thought and the accumulation of memories and experiences, that defines personhood.

[beej]

My best friends grandson was born with anecephaly. He had no brain, only a brain stem. He lived for 7 hours. He smiled at the sound of his mother's voice, over and over again,but his head was completely flat in the back from having an empty brain cavity. He was given a birth certificate and a death certificate. He had a name. He was still a person.

[Matthew Hajicek]

My best friends grandson was born with anecephaly. He had no brain, only a brain stem. He lived for 7 hours. He smiled at the sound of his mother's voice, over and over again,but his head was completely flat in the back from having an empty brain cavity. He was given a birth certificate and a death certificate. He had a name. He was still a person.

That body was treated as a person purely to make the family feel better.  It was not actually a person.  Brain stem reflex responses do not indicate the presence of a mind.

[Incogneeto]

That body was treated as a person purely to make the family feel better.  It was not actually a person.  Brain stem reflex responses do not indicate the presence of a mind.

Neither do your Posts.

You remind me of Yank.

Compassion.... always Compassion.

[beej]

That body was treated as a person purely to make the family feel better.  It was not actually a person.  Brain stem reflex responses do not indicate the presence of a mind.

your freedom of speech and thought are important to me. Your reasoning is flawed. I'll leave it at that.

[Matthew Hajicek]

Neither do your Posts.

You remind me of Yank.

Compassion.... always Compassion.

Yes, compassion.  Compassion for those who are being actively harmed by anti-abortion legislation.  That much is beyond reasonable debate.

[RobertELee]

https://youtube.com/shorts/Px1GOyrU9Bs?feature=share

 

[Matthew Hajicek]

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak

[pmartin]

They called it the quickening, when a baby's movement could be felt by the mother. Before that time in a pregnancy abortion was not illegal.

Of course we are talking about the era of the founding fathers so feel free to discount what they thought.   

[gcode]

Of course we are talking about the era of the founding fathers so feel free to discount what they thought.   

racist old white guys 

[RobertELee]

Of course we are talking about the era of the founding fathers so feel free to discount what they thought.   

And of course worlds of medical information about pregnancies has been learned over the last couple hundred years.