Switching to CamWorks?

[Jim at Gentex]

I know we have had these discussions in the past, and I'm not looking to start any flame wars...

There has been some email traffic within my employer's upper management echelon where the subject of discussion is the possibility of switching us to CamWorks. 
I'm not sure how the discussion started, but I suspect one of our n00b Mechanical Engineers may have used it in school and came in here talking it up.
I'm also not sure if it is just talk at this point, or if they are actually considering it.

Anyway, one of our middle managers had the good sense to ask my opinion since I am the main Programmer in this facility.
I told him we have been using Mastercam since the early 1990's, and that it has handled everything we have ever thrown at it, and that I see no reason to make such a major change.

Other than knowing it runs within SolidWorks, I am completely unfamiliar with CamWorks, so I couldn't give him anything more than that.

So I have 2 questions for the group:
-What are the actual pros and cons?
-What kind of learning curve should I expect if they did decide to make such a move?

Again, not looking for a flame war, just some honest evaluation...   

[mega]

Hard to say if a software will be a good fit without trying it,
I would ask for an eval version before making a decision.

[gcode]

CamWorks runs inside SolidWorks and a 2.5X version is available inside a basic seat of SolidWorks.
That's probably why your baby engineer is pushing it.
I have a pretty robust 3X CamWorks seat in my seat of SW Professional, but have never even opened it.
I got involved with a guy who was developing a billet intake manifold for the Volvo T6 inline 6 cylinder engine.
He designed it in SW and was trying to machine it in CamWorks.
It wasn't going well and he ended up buying a seat of NX.

To make full use on CamWorks you need to be a SW power users.
I don't think I've ever meet anyone who uses CamWorks in a machine shop environment

[JParis]

Camworks big claim is making quick work on families of parts...

It works on Knowledge Bases that the user creates, these aree time intensive.

If you do very similar parts, once your knowledge bases are created and defined, it can be quick to program parts...

If you work on varied different things, it can be cumbersome

[gcode]

Since we're talking about SolidWorks here
Who thought this was a good idea

[Zoffen]

Since we're talking about SolidWorks here
Who though this was a good idea

I saw this today in my email and shook my head so hard it almost fell off of its swivel.

If this is what they need to do to attract young people into the fields I think we are doomed....DOOMED I SAY!

[Jim at Gentex]

Thank you guys for the feedback.
This is exactly what I was looking for.

Again, hopefully it's just talk at this point, but if I am asked any further questions I want to have something more specific than what I have said so far.

There's also the 'teaching old dogs new tricks' aspect of this, which I don't see happening at this point in my programming career!     

[gcode]

This is the CamWorks project I got involved in.
The engineer probably had a year into programming it in CamWorks when he gave up and moved to NX
I gave him a few Mastercam toolpaths, but I don't believe any of them are used in the production parts.
It's very nice work.
Elevate T6 billet manifold

[CNCAppsJames]

To piggy back on Ron's take, CAMworks has some plusses. Flexibility (which has been a hallmark of Mastercam for decades) is NOT one of them. CAMworks absolutely neeeds a machining strategy database (which it builds as you program parts). Getting there is slow and painful. There are no two ways about that fact. If your dealer is any good they may be able to provide you with at least a starter Database. The likelihood of that though... I am unsure of.

Our Automation Division has an AE on staff (a guy that used to be active in eMastercam - mwhitten) that swears by it, but he's a SolidWorks Power User and serious CAD jock so that environment is comfortable for him. He spends probable 50-60hour a week in SolidWorks. He's tried to get me onboard with it, problem with at is I'm not a full-time programmer.

Whatever I use HAS to build on my experience and or be logical for me to work within. I found CAMworks to be neither for me. In it's defense, I had ZERO formal training with it so my assessment should not be taken too seriously on that front. I woudl call myself a Novice SolidWorks user. Probably less than 500 hours if I were counting. That said, I was able to be productive with ZERO training in Inventor HSM and Fusion360 within a few hours. I have 1,000's of hours of experience in the Inventor environment.

Here's what I tell EVERYONE that is considering switching CAM packages; 1st and foremost is support. Who is going to be supporting your MANUFACTURING endeavors? Do they have guys that have actual machining experience that can help you with the inevitable challenges? Or, do they have spiffed up CAD jocks that can make pretty pictures with metal removel tools? How long have they been a reseller for CAM? What is the market penetration in the region with said CAM package? I ask this because you're going to want a labor pool. It's not effective or helpful to your bottom line if every time you need/want a new programmer that you have to spend months training them while they get up to speed. Do they teach it at your local community college or trade school? How will legacy data be treated? Reprogram in the new CAM system or maintain the necessary license(es) to retain functionality for a period of time. Will EVERYONE migrate over to the new CAM system or will engineering eb speaking two languages?

I don't ask these questions to dissuade people from making the switch, I ask these questions in earnest so people (read managers and bean counters that WILL wonder why productivity out of the engineering department has dropped) will know what they are in for should they choose to go that route.

HTH

[crazy^millman]

Thank you guys for the feedback.
This is exactly what I was looking for.

Again, hopefully it's just talk at this point, but if I am asked any further questions I want to have something more specific than what I have said so far.

There's also the 'teaching old dogs new tricks' aspect of this, which I don't see happening at this point in my programming career!     

Does anything you do or have done require maintenance or programming support? If so what are the cost with converting all of that over to a different CAM Software? 3000 programs at 2-8 hours each? 6000-24000 hours all falling on one programmer? Not a matter of teaching an old dog new tricks a matter of what supports the company? Why I loathe Autodesk subscriptions and their ransomware process with Cloud, limited user accounts.

[CADCAM396]

just went through this painfull excercist two years ago.
was driven by engineering with thought that any one could program parts using model (even a 6 year old lol). this was what was being sold to them.
preliminary test drove for a week per there request and gave them feed back. let them know it was not a good tool for my department (tooling) all mix no production and probably not a good fit for our production due to high mix low quantity. that fell on def ears.
1.5 years, only 2 part programs and over $30k in training and post developement later I think they have finally shelved it.
It could be a very good fit for a company with there own product modeled in Solid works. non native models were a total PITA. most all our work are very inorganic shapes modeled in air plane space (composites). it also seemed to lack a bit of custom cutter path control. as in cutting partial contours in different order (free pan trim strategy's).
I hope your venture goes better than mine.

[gcode]

If this is what they need to do to attract young people into the fields I think we are doomed

I think anyone who would be attracted by such silly shit would be woefully unqualified for this kind of work.

[Jim at Gentex]

Our Design department does do most of our modeling in house with SolidWorks and Catia.
We open the SW models in Mastercam and save them to our network with all toolpaths and generated NC files.

We probably have a few hundred production parts that we run routinely.

I also pointed out to the manager who asked me that the investment was already made for the custom post-processors for our multi-axis mills, so that is another financial factor in the equation.

Again, I think it is one higher level manager kicking around the idea, so I hope when he gets more info he will decide it's not worth it to make such a big change.

[TSmcam]

Our Design department does do most of our modeling in house with SolidWorks and Catia.
We open the SW models in Mastercam and save them to our network with all toolpaths and generated NC files.

We probably have a few hundred production parts that we run routinely.

I also pointed out to the manager who asked me that the investment was already made for the custom post-processors for our multi-axis mills, so that is another financial factor in the equation.

Again, I think it is one higher level manager kicking around the idea, so I hope when he gets more info he will decide it's not worth it to make such a big change.

A good thing to do, is calculate an estimate of the expected cost to switch... Software, Post Processors, Training, Tool Libraries, and if necessary, part/toolpath conversion. Throw in cost of downtime in programming while all the training, posts, and tool libraries are being put together.

Don't be scared to be realistic about the cost, because it wouldn't be cheap. Higher level managers, when they see plenty of zeros, often run a mile in the opposite direction .

[CNCAppsJames]

Honest evaluation is always a good thing.

We had a customer recently switch CAM packages. He had been using hius current CAM system for a few years (maybe 4) so not soooooooper deep into it, but deep enough his spreadsheet was a couple pages. Oddly enough, "cost" of the actual software wasn't in his calculus. Posts, training, availability of software jocks, CAD integration, CAD interoperability, additional machine configuration availability, along with a whole bunch of other things specific to his work and work flow. After deep consideration he made the move. I was surprised he did. Though after seeing how he weighted the individual criteria, it wasn't so surprising.