What is a "Programmer"

Started by JParis, November 09, 2022, 04:39 AM

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JParis

The moniker programmer has I think, become twisted.

I see so many ads for CNC Programmer, Mastercam Programmer, Multi-axis Programmer and on & on...

You read the job descriptions and they are really looking for a machinist who "might" be able to program.

When I think of a Programmer in my mind that is a dedicated person whose job IS programming...

What say you?
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crazy^millman

Agreed, problem is the lack of skills out there. They need programs, but what good are programs if there is not someone qualified enough to setup and run them?

mega

Well this is the definition :
pro·gram·mer
[ˈprōˌɡramər]
NOUN
a person who writes computer programs:
"computer programmers and analysts"
a device that automatically controls the operation of something in accordance with a prescribed program.

Then you have a subset of programming where people use an editor to create code, such as mastercam,
Some companies rank people by giving them different job titles and different pay rates, most of the places i worked everyone has the same title, i.e. Machinist,Cnc Machinist,Cnc Programmer, Software Developer etc..


neurosis

Quote from: JParis on November 09, 2022, 04:39 AMWhat say you?


I haven't applied for a job since the mid 90's so I haven't been on that side of it. From the hiring side of it, it's getting more and more difficult to hire machinists without telling them that there is at least potential of making it in to the programming room. *Everyone* want's to be and/or thinks that they are a programmer.  If you don't put that in the ad you don't seem to get as many hits.

The shop that I work in is small enough that I have to do both. I program a majority of the time but when the programming slows down I'll go out and run a machine.   
"I didn't know they gave out rings at the Holocaust"

JParis

Quote from: neurosis on November 09, 2022, 05:14 AMIf you don't put that in the ad you don't seem to get as many hits.

I have an ad running currently, I have gotten 1 hit in 3 weeks for a strictly programming role
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neurosis

Quote from: JParis on November 09, 2022, 05:23 AMI have an ad running currently, I have gotten 1 hit in 3 weeks for a strictly programming role

Could it be that the job description is above *most* mastercam programmers experience level? 

Another thing I've noticed over the 20 years on emc.  There are a hand full of you guys and an over saturation of us guys.  :D 
"I didn't know they gave out rings at the Holocaust"

JParis

Quote from: neurosis on November 09, 2022, 05:30 AMCould it be that the job description is above *most* mastercam programmers experience level? 


"Possibly" I don't rule it out

But what happened to guys that thought they were ready for the next challenge?  I was forever rwaching above ability and learning on the fly...

then again, I guess I just answered my own question..

crazy^millman

Quote from: neurosis on November 09, 2022, 05:30 AMThere are a hand full of you guys and an over saturation of us guys.  :D 


Here is one statement I really don't want to believe, but reality is proving that to be the case the more and more I do what I am doing.

Examples of issues I have dealt with in the last few months.

#1 Was not setting the tool lengths correctly and took 4 months and 6 scrapped parts to get the customer to figure out it was not the Program or the Machine. Guess who was getting the Lion's share of the blame behind their back? Top Fortune 50 company.

#2 Programming machine from COR and never bothering to check what the actual COR is on machine that have G43.3 and G68.2, but refuse to program and run their machines that way. 4 shops not one but 4 different shops doing this with modern equipment.

#3 Have CAV and never bothered to use it or vet it and then upset we refused to accept responsibility if the machines were crashed. Part of our terms and conditions is we never accept any responsibility for a machine crash. We do everything in our power to ensure we provide error free code, but until a program has been run it is never 100%. Even then sometimes might need to be adjusted.

#4 Quoted 2-3 week lead time and the PO is cut with a 3 day delivery requirement and upset because we refused the PO until the delivery terms were accepted and new PO made with them.

#5 Refused to call out endmills in ER holders and required they purchase Hydraulic or Shrink. Took the programs and then put them in ER holders and scrapped about 6 parts because the endmills were pulling out of the ER holders. Expected our company to be responsible for doing what they were told not to do. Yes I have to write these kind of things in our terms and conditions. 
 

Matthew Hajicek

Here's how I think of it:

CNC Operator / Machine Operator - Someone who swaps parts and hits the green button, maybe checking some dimensions and doing some deburring.  May or may not be able to replace a cutter.

CNC Setup - Follows setup sheets, loads existing programs, sets up and proves out the operation.  Should be able to do some troubleshooting.

CNC Programmer - Sits at a computer and programs all day every day, without touching a machine.  I was a programmer for many years.

CNC Machinist - Does it all, from process engineering to inspecting.
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CADCAM396

Quote from: Matthew Hajicek on November 09, 2022, 08:11 AMHere's how I think of it:

CNC Operator / Machine Operator - Someone who swaps parts and hits the green button, maybe checking some dimensions and doing some deburring.  May or may not be able to replace a cutter.

CNC Setup - Follows setup sheets, loads existing programs, sets up and proves out the operation.  Should be able to do some troubleshooting.

CNC Programmer - Sits at a computer and programs all day every day, without touching a machine.  I was a programmer for many years.

CNC Machinist - Does it all, from process engineering to inspecting.

most ads I see today for cnc programmer machinist are looking for some one to take responsability for all the above because no one in the job titles above will. they may as well advertise for a fall guy. it is setup to fail and there is no understanding of machine shop structure by management.
my rant for the day cause that is my current situation and then some. its a trap I tell ya.
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TSmcam

Quote from: neurosis on November 09, 2022, 05:14 AM*Everyone* want's to be and/or thinks that they are a programmer.   


They sure do. I've had young, fresh out of school CNC operators (just pushing cycle start buttons and loading parts) ask me what they need to do to become a programmer.

My reply is always "do an apprenticeship, and learn to operate all kinds of CNC machine tools, learn to programme basic NC programmes manually, and then you'll be ready to step up to CAM applications and become a full bore programmer". Pretty much all of them respond with "but that will take too much time. I want to do it now".

I wont hire a programmer without practical machine tool/metal cutting experience. They're harder and harder to find, but the headaches aren't worth it otherwise.
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CNC Softwares own 'lil piece of Poison Ivy.
TopSolid for the Win :)

neurosis

Quote from: TSmcam on November 09, 2022, 11:10 AM"but that will take too much time. I want to do it now".

We just had a kid leave here a few months back for pretty much the same reason.

We tried to tell him several times over that he needed to learn the machines, material, tools, etc. Then learn how to program. 

He insisted on programming so the boss turned him loose on a few jobs.  He was totally overwhelmed and didn't realize that you had to think a job through from start to finish before even starting the programming.  He ended up working himself in to a hole a few times. When offered help, he was "too smart" (stubborn) to accept it.  :lol: 

Long story short, he ended up in another shop and put "programmer" on his resume. We do work for the shop he ended up in. IMO, he's not even prepared to be an operator in their shop. 

Maybe we're just old? I don't remember expecting to start at the top when I entered the trade.
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"I didn't know they gave out rings at the Holocaust"

CADCAM396

I started at the bottom deburr and cleaning toilets. that was enough drive to move up but was not allowed to in any step of the way until I became proficient at my current job title. the progression was set up so one skill set built on the next. deburr, operator-saw, setup, blue print reading and inspection then programming.
firm believer I would fail at programming if the previous skills were not honed very well.
am more times than not humbled by oversights and new challenges but as long I am still learning I enjoy the trade.
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TSmcam

Quote from: neurosis on November 09, 2022, 11:17 AMMaybe we're just old? I don't remember expecting to start at the top when I entered the trade.


Yep, we're old. But you're right, we didn't expect to start at the top. The current generation we're seeing is more often than not, the "Instant Gratification Generation". Everything needs to be accessible on their mobile, and they want the latest car, latest electronics etc.

From a manufacturing perspective, too many watch the Titan #boom 5 axis machining skills in 5 minutes type crap. We have one of those here. Zero experience (he is just a manual labourer working in the shop), downloaded Fusion, watched Titan porn and then came into work and asked me about taking one of the five axis programmes he made in Fusion and running it on the 5 axis mill.

Go figure... I identify with Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino more and more these days LOL
CNC Softwares own 'lil piece of Poison Ivy.
TopSolid for the Win :)

Matthew Hajicek

I learned basic Mastercam at Dunwoody, and lucked into a programming job straight out of school.  Unfortunately it was a long time before any employer would let me touch a machine; they said my time was too valuable.  Some of them wouldn't even let me talk to the setup/operator guys to see if I was doing a decent job or what I could do better.
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