What is a "Programmer"

[Zoffen]

Some of them wouldn't even let me talk to the setup/operator guys to see if I was doing a decent job or what I could do better.

Yikes! That's Insanity!!!!

[neurosis]

lucked into a programming job straight out of school.

I lucked out in that I started working for a family owned shop where the shop owners son was doing the programming. He was probably the worst programmer I've ever seen.  He and his Dad got in a big fight one day and his Dad fired him and left the shop without a programmer. 

To fill the spot, they took a guy from the lathe area but this guy was mostly programming the lathes by hand at the time.  That's a little more difficult to do on the Mills.

I started sneaking in at night while the night shift was running and digging in the their SmartCam manuals and after about a month was able to make some basic programs.  When the shop owner figured out what I was doing he immediately put me to the test.  I've been programming ever since. 

Unlike you, and especially since I was so young, literally everyone told me the problems with my programming.   

[mega]

I lucked out in that I started working for a family owned shop where the shop owners son was doing the programming. He was probably the worst programmer I've ever seen.  He and his Dad got in a big fight one day and his Dad fired him and left the shop without a programmer. 

To fill the spot, they took a guy from the lathe area but this guy was mostly programming the lathes by hand at the time.  That's a little more difficult to do on the Mills.

I started sneaking in at night while the night shift was running and digging in the their SmartCam manuals and after about a month was able to make some basic programs.  When the shop owner figured out what I was doing he immediately put me to the test.  I've been programming ever since. 

Unlike you, and especially since I was so young, literally everyone told me the problems with my programming.   

I started programming Mastercam in school at the age of 17, every program I made ran flawlessly in the machine without modification, my first job was a tool shop where there was only some manual gcode programming for a small mill and programming of these cnc metal spinning machines, there wasn't any opportunity for programming there,

I worked at a CNC Job shop next, the programmers said I was too inexperienced to program CNC machines and even after I took the initiative and programmer a job they said they didn't have time to try it out, by the time I left the company, they would sometimes ask me to program a simple job if it was a rush, but that only happened a handful of times and at my request, and i would have to run and deburr the job too,

I left that company for another after 2 years my boss was furious, he offered to match their offer if i stayed, I said I wanted to program, he said no. It was a culture there of "you need 10 years experience to use a conventional lathe", and if you were hired into a position, there was no prospect of advancement.

I worked at a job using pencil cam after that for a year, then i worked in aerospace for 4 years as a programmer,
very successfully I might add, I implemented processes that saved millions for the company and reduced the lead time on programming a part from 1-2 hours to 5 minutes.

In the aerospace industry I observed how hard they made it for an experienced operator to break into programming.
And how they would hire people into programming that have never seen gcode or a CAM software or a CNC machine before..

My experience has been that there is a culture of keeping operators wanting to program out of the role because the existing programmers don't want competition. My goal was always to program a five axis machine, which i was passed over repeatedly due to company politics, when I was finally offered the position, I laughed and told them I quit.
The passion for machining and programming CNC machines was gone, and I think that has happened to a whole generation of programmers,

[JParis]

The passion for machining and programming CNC machines was gone, and I think that has happened to a whole generation of programmers,

You may well be the exception to the rule, I will grant you that...

I got a resume today, has been working for only a couple of years out of HS now....lest than 6 months shop experience but his resume states "Lead CNC Programmer and Setup"  & "CNC Programmer and Setup" I am not even going to waste my time.

someone that has 6 months of putting parts in vises has NO BUSINESS trying to program....not yet anyway...in most cases they are getting getting smart enough to be dangerous.

Instant gratifcation is all it is with very rare exception.

 

[mega]

You may well be the exception to the rule, I will grant you that...

I got a resume today, has been working for only a couple of years out of HS now....lest than 6 months shop experience but his resume states "Lead CNC Programmer and Setup"  & "CNC Programmer and Setup" I am not even going to waste my time.

someone that has 6 months of putting parts in vises has NO BUSINESS trying to program....not yet anyway...in most cases they are getting getting smart enough to be dangerous.

Instant gratifcation is all it is with very rare exception.

 

One factor is education, a CNC Programmer Ideally would have taken a course in Mastercam and be certified to program.
Experience is another factor, but from one shop to another the work varies, so experience doesn't necessarily mean anything if all you were programming square block all day.

Also if you only have one candidate (with some limited experience) I might add, and you are responsible for hiring, it is your job to interview the candidate. There is no reason a programmer couldn't gain proficiency in Mastercam in 6 months, it's not that hard if someone is training you, it's a very cryptic software.

[neurosis]

In the aerospace industry I observed how hard they made it for an experienced operator to break into programming.
And how they would hire people into programming that have never seen gcode or a CAM software or a CNC machine before..

My experience has been the opposite.  I've never seen a shop hire someone to program that has never spent time on a shop floor. Keep in mind that I've worked in this shop for years now so things have probably changed since I got in to the trade. I don't know.  If you don't know how to plan a job from beginning to end, and I'm not talking about a sheet metal cutout, square block, or simple turning part, there are too many variable in machining to just plant a person with zero machining experience in to that position.

My experience has been that there is a culture of keeping operators wanting to program out of the role because the existing programmers don't want competition.

There is a LOT of that going on. I ran in to that when I started at this shop.  When I started here we were almost exclusively making molds. Mostly rotary molds for Boeing but we did some snowboard and bike molds for K2.  NONE of the programmers would help train me. I had to move from SmartCam to Cimatron which wasn't an easy transition, and I had to do it with zero training or schooling.

That's the other part of what I wanted to say.  I was willing to come in on my own time until I was proficient enough at the software to make the shop money.  Most kids I see these days aren't willing to put in that effort. Then they complain that they aren't getting the "opportunity".  I had to force my way in to the position and prove that I had the chops. 

[JParis]

Also if you only have one candidate (with some limited experience) I might add, and you are responsible for hiring, it is your job to interview the candidate. There is no reason a programmer couldn't gain proficiency in Mastercam in 6 months, it's not that hard if someone is training you, it's a very cryptic software.

In a secondary position that I want to fill, maybe byt that's later....but in this primary role I am trying to fill, not going to waste my time with someone whi so obviously isn't ready...

[mega]

That's the other part of what I wanted to say.  I was willing to come in on my own time until I was proficient enough at the software to make the shop money.  Most kids I see these days aren't willing to put in that effort. Then they complain that they aren't getting the "opportunity".  I had to force my way in to the position and prove that I had the chops. 

I would practice Mastercam every day at home and I learned in school and did the machining course and the programming course, and I interact with hundreds of programmers every year doing the same and asking questions, I think a lot of people grind for these positions just to here, no.. you need 5 years experience, it's so hard what we do here, then you see the part and its a cylinder with two holes in it..

[mega]

In a secondary position that I want to fill, maybe byt that's later....but in this primary role I am trying to fill, not going to waste my time with someone whi so obviously isn't ready...

imo that's a big red flag, your time is too valuable to give someone a shot at an interview..
anyway i feel like you kind of proved my point, ageism/ego are a big factor in why there are no potential hires, no one gave them a chance to get started...

[JParis]

I think a lot of people grind for these positions just to here, no.. you need 5 years experience, it's so hard what we do here, then you see the part and its a cylinder with two holes in it..

That right there is your youth talking.

A programmer that doesn't understand he/she can't hang that 1" endmill out 9 inches and rough material isn't just bad, they're dangerous.

You might want to consider that some roles are indeed complex, not just square blocks with holes...then you factor in "how do I make 50,000/yr efffiently & effectively AND of good quality."  That isn't every role but IT IS the role I am trying to fill.

No, not every role will be like this one but they are out there. and in this role a "noob" ain't gonna get it

[neurosis]

You may well be the exception to the rule, I will grant you that...

Lol,  Yes, definitely an anomaly. 

[neurosis]

You might want to consider that some roles are indeed complex, not just square blocks with holes...then you factor in "how do I make 50,000/yr efffiently & effectively AND of good quality."  That isn't every role but IT IS the role I am trying to fill.

The problem we had the the last kid who wanted a programming position, he didn't understand that a small shop can't afford to have him spending three weeks to get a job running that should have been done in three hours.  Then there was the amount of scrap produced before coming up with a good process and good part. 

He was a smart kid and a hard worker. He just wasn't ready and too arrogant to admit it. 

You're 9" hang out is one good example of countless issues that can come from inexperience.

[JParis]

You're 9" hang out is one good example of countless issues that can come from inexperience.

Even beyond, how do you take someone with very limited shop and "on machine" experience and expect that they can not only program but can design the proper fixtures & tools required?

How can they interface with Engineering to work through manufacturing issues with parts?

How will they deal with assembly when issues arise in assemby that require manufacturing changes?

Can they create a SOP document for the shop?

How about defining CTQ feature to create process documents, operation documentation & in-process inspection reports?

and I'm still missing at least a half dozen other things.

[mega]

The problem we had the the last kid who wanted a programming position, he didn't understand that a small shop can't afford to have him spending three weeks to get a job running that should have been done in three hours.  Then there was the amount of scrap produced before coming up with a good process and good part. 

He was a smart kid and a hard worker. He just wasn't ready and too arrogant to admit it. 

You're 9" hang out is one good example of countless issues that can come from inexperience.

Thanks for the lesson guys, for everyone at home, don't hang your 9 inch out at work..

[gcode]

and keep your tape measure calibrated