Rational discussion about our current state of irrationality.

[beej]

The fine tuning argument was the final nail in the coffin for atheism for me. I am a skeptical person by nature. Even with a personal experience that left me believing I had just been part of a miracle. Over time I began to wonder if I had made that experience bigger and "more miraculous" in my mind than what originally took place. I stumbled upon Aristotle's argument for an un-moved mover and it took a while for me to grasp the argument he was making. Some modern thinkers helped me with that. But the fine-tuned universe argument left me without doubt. Christopher Hitchens said that argument kept him up at night.

Just for example. You might already know that our atmosphere is .04221%  In real numbers that is .0004221 of total atmosphere. Climate scientist are saying that if that number goes up to .0005-.0006, we are all cooked.  There are an incredible amount of different things to look at it in the fine tuning argument, any of them by themselves, could be coincidence but when you put them all together. it makes for overwhelming evidence

[neurosis]

Just for example. You might already know that our atmosphere is .04221%  In real numbers that is .0004221 of total atmosphere. Climate scientist are saying that if that number goes up to .0005-.0006, we are all cooked. 

That would make me wonder why, if god created an environment for us to survive in, why would he make it so fragile? 

[beej]

That would make me wonder why, if god created an environment for us to survive in, why would he make it so fragile? 

I guess what you are calling fragile, I would call a miracle. If you think about the Apollo missions to the moon, the process was fragile in that fuel that they used to launch was volatile, they had to hit a moving target, 240,000 miles away, they used computers that had the basic technology have a handheld calculator today. and if a single wire burned out on the apollo craft, or O-ring failed, or heat shield burned up or the parachute didn't deploy, everyone onboard perished. I guess you could call that fragile but you could also call that incredible design since it was so successful.

[neurosis]

That sounds like more of a rationalization than an explanation.  And don't get me wrong, if it were designed by a higher power, maybe it was intentional. If I were to try to build something for people to survive in, I would make sure that it wasn't so fragile that it could be ended so easily. 

Don't get me started on natural disasters. 

 

[beej]

That sounds like more of a rationalization than an explanation.  And don't get me wrong, if it were designed by a higher power, maybe it was intentional. If I were to try to build something for people to survive in, I would make sure that it wasn't so fragile that it could be ended so easily. 

Don't get me started on natural disasters. 

 

How fragile is though if you don't have the power to change it. We can't change the speed of light, the distance between the sun and the Earth, the gravitational pull of the moon, the speed in which the universe is expanding. All of those things are finely tuned and we have no power at all to change them.  There are fail-safes built in to correct a lot of what we can change, such as climate, DNA alterations and such. So the laws of the universe are complicated but they are not all that fragile.

[Incogneeto]

@mkd  You lost Neu.
Speak  s  l  o  w  e  r 

Careful..you are right at the edge of saying "Stoopid"

[neurosis]

Careful..you are right at the edge of saying "Stoopid"

You don't ever turn it off, do you?   

[Incogneeto]

That sounds like more of a rationalization than an explanation.  And don't get me wrong, if it were designed by a higher power, maybe it was intentional. If I were to try to build something for people to survive in, I would make sure that it wasn't so fragile that it could be ended so easily. 

Don't get me started on natural disasters. 

 

Build?? Maybe God Created it for Ease of Use.

Infinite wisdom and Power.

Incomprehensible to Mankind.

A Tornado needs certain Ingredients.

Unstable air , correct Temps , wind direction.

You know what they call a "F5"?

God's Finger.

Random is just Not There.

[Incogneeto]

You don't ever turn it off, do you?   

Misfire!! Misfire!!

I don't believe that was directed at you.

But your Victim status has been Recognized and duly addressed.

[beej]

I wish everyone could have conversations in this way. 

They touch on some what would be considered triggering topics and do it in a polite rational way. 

I know beej loves Sam Harris.   

I just listened to the video. I have some common views with Harris in this interview. And other times I just shake my head in disbelief at how he doesn't see the obvious right in front of him. I had one of those moments when he was describing Anthony Bordain's suicide after having all of these incredible experiences and those experiences left him unfulfilled. He can't really give an answer to why that is. And he gave a feeble attempt to try, but it was a stab in the dark because he doesn't understand. We are not made for self-gratification. We are made for the glory of God.

[beej]

Build?? Maybe God Created it for Ease of Use.

Infinite wisdom and Power.

Incomprehensible to Mankind.

A Tornado needs certain Ingredients.

Unstable air , correct Temps , wind direction.

You know what they call a "F5"?

God's Finger.

Random is just Not There.

I know I'll regret encouraging you, but I love the Incog Prose. 

[Smit]

We are made for the glory of God.

Lol. There sure are a lot of atheists around who haven't killed themselves yet.

[neurosis]

And other times I just shake my head in disbelief at how he doesn't see the obvious right in front of him.

We all think that on occasion. I think that a lot when I read the forum, or listen to people like Ben Shapiro.

We all *mostly* view our own opinions over others.

[beej]

Lol. There sure are a lot of atheists around who haven't killed themselves yet.

Hey! the president's diapers need changed and its your turn! Go get your chores done. 

[Smit]

Ah, so that's why Anthony killed himself but it's not like that for everybody. Gotcha.

I understand why you wanted to change the subject.