New DNC System

[Thee Byte]

Free fiss.



When I do a turn-key today, the level of detail required in the documentation is close to about quadruple what was required in the late 1990's early 2000's. No exaggeration. Text was sufficient BITD, now images, drawings, illustrations are required. I don't mind doing it, it's only time. It just seems like the more details that are present, the more details that need to be added to successful execute the task whatever it is. It's like a viscous circle.

As people become more dependent on technology to do their thinking for them, they loose the ability to think for themselves, and troubleshoot.

IMHO of course.

If u look at the docs for any aerospace company, it's step by step with numbers and pictures, idiot proof, it's the way of things

[neurosis]

Every guy (25-30ish mill guys) on the floor can do setups. 99% of the time the guy that sets up a job is the one who runs it.

It's the same at our shop except that we only have about 9 guys out there. Everyone knows how to do their own setups.  In a shop our size it's difficult to have dedicated setup guys, especially with the quantities we run. We can't afford to have a machine sitting and waiting for a setup guy.

I don't think I've ever worked in a shop that has dedicated setup and dedicated operators. With what I've seen in diminishing skill levels over the years I can see there may not be a choice at some point. 

We had a group of old shoolers retire over the last couple of years and replacing them has been difficult. A lot of the people coming in are people who came from the paint by number shops and just don't have the aptitude to think their way through a job or do their own troubleshooting. We used to call it the the millennial effect but I think it's gotten worse with each generation.

[JParis]

I don't think I've ever worked in a shop that has dedicated setup and dedicated operators.

We currently have 54 CNC machines between both of our internal shops....once our newest 80,000 sq/ft expansion is complete, we already have on order 18 more machines on order.....there is just no way, especially in the day & age that we could staff each line and/or machine with people who can handle their own setups.

We have Operators, Jr setup and Sr setup guys....

and then on top of everything else, my department has also been tasked with taking on the lathe programming as well...finding competent people who can setup & program in Mazatrol is difficult at best. Thus I am adding another position and the reality is, I need yet another one on top of that but one thing at a time.


With all of the moving pieces, levels of talent and growth, having scalable systems in place is vital to success.

[neurosis]

We currently have 54 CNC machines between both of our internal shops....once our newest 80,000 sq/ft expansion is complete, we already have on order 18 more machines on order.....there is just no way, especially in the day & age that we could staff each line and/or machine with people who can handle their own setups.

I've always worked in small shops where everyone had to pull their own weight. That usually meant being somewhat of a jack of all trades machinist. If you couldn't you were let go.

When I started working here we only had 6 CNC machines and rarely made more than 1 off parts. Most of the parts were rotary molds for Boeing or snowboard molds for K2. We had 3 programmers for 5 machines and the programmers were also responsible for doing setups so we were always REALLY busy. The 6th machine was a lathe that one guy was responsible for.

It's changed quite a bit in 30 years.  We do small quantity production now with the occasional prototype parts mixed in and *very* small quantity spares work. We still don't have the luxury of having dedicated setup guys. I'd be willing to bet that you have more setup guys in your shop than we have employees? 

[JParis]

I'd be willing to bet that you have more setup guys in your shop than we have employees? 

We may well.

You'd likely be surprised by how few we have that can take an entire new setup and machine all the fixtures, plates and various holding clamps and get a program through first pc and off and running. The Jr setup guys will mostly take existing jobs and get them turned back on and through a new inspection, we are trying to grow further to have more ability. The VMC area is a little better off in that respect.

It feels like the day of a small mom & pop shop days are numbered though....so many local shops being bought up by larger manufacturing conglomerates these days.

[neurosis]

It feels like the day of a small mom & pop shop days are numbered though....so many local shops being bought up by larger manufacturing conglomerates these days.

20 years ago they were scattered everywhere. You could walk out one door and in to another a block away. I don't see nearly as many in this area anymore and it feels as though the ones that are left, are struggling.

This shop has been around since the 50's. I hope it will, but doubt that it will be around 10 years from now.  Unless he can go full production and get a youdoug in here to automate everything.    It's too difficult to find talent anymore.

[JParis]

Unless he can go full production and get a youdoug in here to automate everything.    It's too difficult to find talent anymore.

and that's why I suggest to JakeL to explore a robust system and to beat on ahead of time.

Today is one thing, tomorrow is promising to be very different.

[JakeL]

Free fiss.



When I do a turn-key today, the level of detail required in the documentation is close to about quadruple what was required in the late 1990's early 2000's. No exaggeration. Text was sufficient BITD, now images, drawings, illustrations are required. I don't mind doing it, it's only time. It just seems like the more details that are present, the more details that need to be added to successful execute the task whatever it is. It's like a viscous circle.

As people become more dependent on technology to do their thinking for them, they loose the ability to think for themselves, and troubleshoot.

IMHO of course.

Couple days ago I was looking at some old "documents" (I use the word documents very loosely). It was about 5 pieces of paper with chicken scratch notes, couple program numbers, couple tool lists, the date on them was 2003. I got to the last page and realized it was a much more complex part than I had been thinking.

Apparently that's how we used to run. The programmer would scribble down just enough info and the machinist would be off and running. Nowadays it's standardized setup sheets and tool lists and many people are involved before a job hits the floor.

[JakeL]

I worked at a place where people would set up and operate, but those employees did repetitive parts or tasks, one guy drilled and tapped holes all day, one guy would be cnc grinding all day, I was cutting grooves all day into premade parts, but for job shop it's difficult if complex setups are required for one offs, not everyone is so good at setup, it only takes one mistake..

How many employees and what kind of parts? I've come to realize "CNC Machining" is a VERY broad category.

As far as differing skill level, there's some guys here who get the harder jobs, and others who get the repeat jobs. Everyone has their own skill level but I imagine you'll see that even with dedicated setup guys, kind of like the Sr/Jr JP is talking about.

[SuperHoneyBadger]

so many local shops being bought up by larger manufacturing conglomerates these days.

I've been following this trend for a few industries - veterinarians, dentists, insurance, etc - but I was not aware it was happening in our sphere. Do you know the names of any of the large companies buying up small shops? I'm very curious, and worried now, because Canada has VERY (read EXTREMELY) lax regulations with those kinds of acquisitions. And nobody seems to notice it at all, don't care, or are profiting.

We are in the <10 employees everyone sets up their own work boat. And I'm the only MasterCam seat in the joint. We punch above our weight, always have, but I'm taking in all the advice here and it's eye-opening.

[JParis]

Do you know the names of any of the large companies buying up small shops? I'm very curious, and worried now, because Canada has VERY (read EXTREMELY) lax regulations with those kinds of acquisitions. And nobody seems to notice it at all, don't care, or are profiting.

Paradigm Precision
Global Precision Products
Align Precision

Those are just 3 off the top of my head...there are others as well

A shop I worked at for a short time in 2013 was another local shop bought by a larger corporation...their name escapes me at the moment

Had to look it up, Premier Precision Group

[neurosis]

but I was not aware it was happening in our sphere. Do you know the names of any of the large companies buying up small shops?

In our area it was Primus International, now PCC Aerostructures.  They started buying up a lot of the mid level shops which started a trickle down affect to the smaller shops.

[Thee Byte]

How many employees and what kind of parts? I've come to realize "CNC Machining" is a VERY broad category.

As far as differing skill level, there's some guys here who get the harder jobs, and others who get the repeat jobs. Everyone has their own skill level but I imagine you'll see that even with dedicated setup guys, kind of like the Sr/Jr JP is talking about.

It was 3 different companies under one roof,
maybe 20 employees, they profit a million bucks a month, it's common they would make 100000 $ a month, all mazaks or large conventional machines, very large machines.

I scrapped a part maybe twice, the drawing was unclear I swear!! 😭

Was a cheap part,
If u scrap parts at that job tho, they will fire you.

They have a nice place, the managers don't talk to you unless they wanted something rush, u get orders delivered to u from the office, 1 hour paid lunch, laundry service on site, good pay, I hurt my shoulder there that's why I quit, that's why I became a programmer more than anything.

At the job shop where I worked when I was about your age, they would put the best setup guy at the time. I would do all the mill and lathe setups   that were regular sized parts, the parts that were a few 1000 pounds would go to  the top programmer there, he ended up working as a setup guy too mostly, I wanted to be a programmer there but they wouldn't let me because If I did a setup it was a sure thing, just like if I make a mastercam program, my programs slap harder than Will Smith at the Oscar's.

Anyway I would say your bestest guy at setup should be doing them, I bet that's you at your place isn't it Jake?

[JakeL]

In our area it was Primus Aerospace, now PCC Aerostructures.  They started buying up a lot of the mid level shops which started a trickle down affect to the smaller shops.

Kind of a long shot here but is it large companies offering? Or small machine shops asking?

Only reason I say this, our company started in the late 70's, about 5 years ago the two founders (co-owners at the time) both had heart attacks in the same week. They both lived, but they realized it's time to move on. Their kids didn't want the company, so they went out looking for someone who wanted to buy.

[Thee Byte]

In our area it was Primus International, now PCC Aerostructures.  They started buying up a lot of the mid level shops which started a trickle down affect to the smaller shops.

If it's aerospace Textron is buying up the market along with Safran.