Learning manual machining-still worthwhile in today's world or skip to CNC?

[JParis]

When I was back in UK a month ago, I dropped into a customer and he said that all the local colleges (affluent south of England) dropped machining a few years ago.
All they now offer is "tech design" - CAD.

The trade school I went to as high school, in the late 90's dropped their machining program in lieu of a tech design class....

In the mid-2000's they brought back the machine shop class. It is coupled with CAD/CAM but the kids are again learning a "hands on" portion of the trade. The program has seen good support from the local business community, even NASA had a program running through the school.

The enrollment is class is full every semester.

Locally any way, someone realized they weren't making any more machinists and someone one needed to be.

Norman Martin, for whom the center is named for, is one teacher, though he passed some years back, I hold in the greatest of esteem and the utmost respect. He was my high school shop teacher that I gave every reason to quit on me like I had quit on myself, yet he never did. He was one teacher that I owe much to for how I progressed.

https://www.glts.net/programs/career-technical-education/advanced-manufacturing-machine-tool-tech

[Brad St]

If someone is going to be programming a machine I fully believe they should have time on a manual machine. For all of the reasons everyone here has stated and also for the simple basics of what does it take to make a block square.

You would not believe how many people that when their part is not correct will blame it on the machine. It's like magic what the cnc is doing and it has to be right....

The basic knowledge of is the head or vise square and true to is my tooling running out. Even especially for doing setups, what will it take to hold a piece of stock so you can do what you need to it.

I believe those basics of machine and part setup to understanding the basics of feeds and speeds are best taught on a manual machine. From there you can tell a machine what to do. But, if all you are doing is repetitive generic parts that all of that criteria is done...well then maybe you could get by without it.

[Here's Johnny!]

I was first and foremost a manual machinist and tool maker. I personally think that learning manual skills will end up building a better well rounded manufacturing person. Knowing how to grind drills, fit die sections etc are all parts of problem solving.

Is it necessary for a CNC programmer? No. But if I had to choose from 2 candidates and one had manual machining experience I would choose this person most likely.

[Del.]

I'm 67 and ran manual machines for about 14 years. I was turning and finishing expensive tool steels 60-62 R/C. I loved it and got very good at it.

[gcode]

The State of California used to have a pretty good training course for machinists/cnc setup and operation.
It was mostly funded by companies sending employees there.
We have one guy who paid his own way and got hired here right out of school. He worked on the floor for about 15 years
then we trained him as a programmer, which he's been doing for 5 years or so now.

The local classes are gone now.
The state started using the course for social welfare.
People could extend their unemployment by taking the course and jail birds could get a commuted sentence for successfully completing the course.
Over time, the Certificate of Completion changed from meaning a graduate had a basic knowledge of machining/cnc to
an attendance award.

We used to hire graduates, until we noticed that large quantities of inspection equipment and shop tools
were disappearing. A trip to local pawn shops and review of video and receipts revealed it was a crew of NMTA grads
ripping us off. We quit hiring NMTA grads as did most other shops.
The local campus has been closed for several years now.
I know one machinists who is attending Mastercam classes on Saturdays, but he's driving 50 miles each way to do it.
Some of the guys we know from eMC and this forum actually taught classes there.

[Newbeeee™]

The State of California

Truth!

[Bucky Cornstarch]

Manual machining? Absolutely. But I'm old and that's how I learned and I think it teaches you a feel for speeds and feeds and how to make stuff. Plus, I have manual machines in my garage that I use for fun projects for the house, cars, and motorcycles.

But more to the point:  You say you got your start making bicycle frames. I spent 30 years designing and manufacturing super high end expensive bicycle components and I'm curious if our paths have crossed before. Or, if I am familiar or have even owned any of your frames.

[beej]

there is a lot of different industries within the industry. If you are a tool maker, where almost everything you do is a "one-off" part, knowledge of manual equipment is still necessary. There is always something that didn't go according to plan, that needs to get done at assembly to get the tool out the door. And putting it back in the CNC really disrupts the workflow in that dept. So we often take care of things like that in a manual machine, and update the programs in the off-chance that we get to build that tool again and move on.

[JakeL]

Going to take a crack at this from a youngsters perspective (24 years-old). I graduated high school in 2019 (non-trade school). At the time I knew very little about machining, but I did grow up on a little farm so I had common sense.

I told the GM of the shop I wanted to be a programmer and he said he wanted me to run a machine first. For 6 months I ran a Matsuura MC-600VF and a Matsuura MC-560V (yes the machines were older than me). I then got upgraded to an Okuma 600HIII and ran that machine for 6 months before getting another upgraded to a couple Matsuura HPLUS-630's. A year and a half into machining and they finally gave me a computer.

Since then I've been programming. I can still run all those machines (tho I'm a little clunky on the Okuma, and they pushed the two verticals into the parking lot a couple years ago).

All this to say I have zero manual machining experience. I've watched my coworkers run manual machines enough that I'm sure I could figure it out, but I've never actual "turned a dial" (unless manually milling a cut or two in a CNC counts).

So should you take a manual machining class today? My recommendation would be a soft no, I can absolutely see the benefits, but I don't think I'd be any better off today if I had manual experience.

[CADCAM396]

It was absolutely necesary for me to start on manuals. everyone learns differently tho, I would not have understood the physics of it any other way. In no way would I have stuck with it just being a button pusher or just a programmer. my personality requires I lift the hood and know as many workings as possible to keep my interest.
60 years young been machining for 40

[Jeff]

I wish it were a requirement.
The experience they get from a manual mill or a lathe is invaluable.
They get the "feel" for the tool in the cut, and how fast a certain rpm is or feed rate, etc..
Hopping directly to a cnc with no "feel" doesn't give them anything to learn from. It just becomes numbers to them.

[Del.]

When I started we didn't have any CNC machines.

[CNCAppsJames]

...
So should you take a manual machining class today? My recommendation would be a soft no, I can absolutely see the benefits, but I don't think I'd be any better off today if I had manual experience.

I see probably see 4-6 problems/issues a year where my manual machining experience played a pivotal role in solving the problem.

But your answer is why I answered the question as I did.

[gcode]

When I started we didn't have any CNC machines.

Me too
The first time a saw a CNC lathe with carbide insert tools running at 500 sfm, my jaw was on the floor
Prior to that all my experience on lathes was hand ground high speed steel tool bits.

[Newbeeee™]

I see probably see 4-6 problems/issues a year where my manual machining experience played a pivotal role in solving the problem.

But your answer is why I answered the question as I did.

James - it it fair to say that most problems you see, are due to "bad methodology and/or workholding"?