Learning manual machining-still worthwhile in today's world or skip to CNC?

[Surface]

"Is learning manual machining-still worthwhile in today's world or skip to CNC?"

That's a great question—and one that gets asked a lot, especially by people getting into machining.

There are reasons to see both sides:
Manual machining teaches a Foundational Understanding by learning how to visualize workholding, alignment, and sequencing cost effectively (mistakes on a CNC can be very expensive). One can more easilly see how materials cut, how tools behave, how speeds and feeds affect everything. That intuition carries over to CNC.

If You're Job Hunting in Modern Shops, CNC is more attractive on a resume and would likely lead immediatly  to a higher paid position.


To be a master in the trade, one should learn, and have experience in both.....And by experince, I mean to have spent time making parts of various sizes, shapes, materials, and volumes.

Making the same part (or family of parts) for years, either in a CNC or manually, will give a lot of experience in a very narrow aspect, which is fine if that's what you're planning to do.

 

[CNCAppsJames]

James - it it fair to say that most problems you see, are due to "bad methodology and/or workholding"?

I'd say it's probably 4 things that are the most common. I don't see "bad" methodology very often. Maybe once every year or two.
1) I see methodologies that present other unaccounted for issues
2) I see machine geometry issues
3) I see work-holding issues
4) I see tooling issues

The tooling issues I see most often are tools and holders that are just too damn long. I see this most often when we sell a machine to users of other 5-Axis equipment or are seasoned HMC companies. Matsuura 5-Axis machines are designed a certain way. That way means most often I'm using an 80-90mm holder and I can get to everything whereas our so-called competition's really need to start at 120mm and go from there... or you give up an assload of stroke to get shorter tools.

[MIL-TFP-41]

We have a couple of manual machines that just wouldn't be practical to replace with a CNC's. Example - a lathe that can swing 40" and has a 20' long bed does not come cheap in a cnc version. Those lathes are used a few times a year for certain jobs. It would take a couple of lifetimes to pay off a cnc version of that machine with their current workload.

Still have a manual horizontal boring mill to supplement the CNC ones. It has the advantage of having a smaller quill than the newer cnc machines, it can get into spots that would be difficult or impossible to do with our other machines.

Then there is the quick & dirty jobs that can be done on a bridgeport or a normal sized manual lathe that would take longer to setup on a CNC than it would take to complete the thing on a manual. 

[JParis]

We have a couple of manual machines that just wouldn't be practical to replace with a CNC's. Example - a lathe that can swing 40" and has a 20' long bed does not come cheap in a cnc version. Those lathes are used a few times a year for certain jobs. It would take a couple of lifetimes to pay off a cnc version of that machine with their current workload.

Still have a manual horizontal boring mill to supplement the CNC ones. It has the advantage of having a smaller quill than the newer cnc machines, it can get into spots that would be difficult or impossible to do with our other machines.

Then there is the quick & dirty jobs that can be done on a bridgeport or a normal sized manual lathe that would take longer to setup on a CNC than it would take to complete the thing on a manual. 

One of the ways I worked my way into a more flexible position back in the early 90's...I was hired as a setup guy for CNC lathes....quickly worked my way into setting up CNC Mills too as I had the experience....at one point I noted a bunch of large parts were stacking up near a manual VTL, 60" dia table....I noted to the shop foreman that if they needed someone to run that machine, I could do that too...pretty quickly I found myself setting those parts up on the VTL and running them off...from CNC Lathe setup & operate to pretty much all around guy within 6 months.

[mowens]

I never ran a manual machine, at least not much. I think, if you are cutting metal, it would be valuable.

[DUM1]

I am Truley grateful for the ten years of all types of manual machining experience. learning the old ways taught me loads of useful information. It's nice going into a shop and being able to use a sine bar or a super spacer, how to cut knurls. I started back in 88' , probably worked in at least 60 shops due to the farming out of American manufacturing jobs to other countries. Nice thing is being one of the last men standing when they close the doors, well kind of bittersweet anyways.
Now though, don't like manual but would if I had too again. 

[Brian]

Wow-so much good feedback here! Thanks to everybody for chiming in....

I'm gonna send a link and encourage them to check it out!

Cheers, Brian

[Brian]

But more to the point:  You say you got your start making bicycle frames. I spent 30 years designing and manufacturing super high end expensive bicycle components and I'm curious if our paths have crossed before. Or, if I am familiar or have even owned any of your frames.

Hi @Bucky Cornstarch !

I'll send you a PM here in a bit so as not to drag this thread off course! Boy, wouldn't it be funny if we know each other?

Cheers, Brian

[Zoffen]

If you got big balls and uber confidence you can make bank running larger manual machines doing simple operations. There is still a market for it but....

Its a hard sell to show someone running a large VTL or boring mill just sweeping chips while the cut takes days...

or....

The 5ax VMC ripping around at light speed makin lots of noise having chips fly....

I know when I went into machining it was specifically after i saw 5axis machining and went, "yup, Thats what i want to do, run and program those machines"...

I think it boils down more to mechanical aptitude of the person vs actual manual machining experience to "get" the things they needed to learn from the manual experience.

[ghuns]

If you got big balls and uber confidence you can make bank running larger manual machines doing simple operations. There is still a market for it but....

Its a hard sell to show someone running a large VTL or boring mill just sweeping chips while the cut takes days...

My senior year of high school, I got a job after school, 3-8PM, running 2 Do-All band saws. The shop wasn't union, but had a union mentality. The saws were automatic, so I just sat and did my homework in between having to load bar stock.

After the first week the foreman said, kid, we need to have a talk. I was like, oh shit. What did I do wrong? Foreman was like, kid, you are cutting more parts in 5 hours than the day shift guy is cutting in 8. I was like, isn't that good? He was like, no. I need you to slow down a bit. Make sure you cut less parts than him. I was like, uh... OK.

So now I am working basically 3-6 and sitting on my hands from 6-8. Besides my saws, there were 3 Bullard VTLs in the building. Only the big 60" one had a night shift operator. He was an older dude close to retiring and I stared hangin out around him, shootin the shit, and watching what he did. I don't think he'd ever had a young person show any interest in what he did so he was always happy to tell me anything I wanted to know.

When I graduated there was an opening posted for an added night shift on the 36" Bullard and I needed a full time job, so I asked the foreman, can I have that job? He was like, kid, you ever run a lathe? I was like, nope. But I know the guy who runs it on days and he's a half retarded drunk. I think if he can run it, I can run it. Foreman was like, fair enough.

[gcode]

I know when I went into machining it was specifically after i saw 5axis machining and went, "yup, Thats what i want to do, run and program those machines"...

For me, it was the same, only it was a big 40hp Okuma CNC machine
After running hand ground HHS tool bits in the USMC, hearing those chips clattering off the window and smoke boiling out of the machine, I was hooked.

[Del.]

My senior year of high school, I got a job after school, 3-8PM, running 2 Do-All band saws. The shop wasn't union, but had a union mentality. The saws were automatic, so I just sat and did my homework in between having to load bar stock.

After the first week the foreman said, kid, we need to have a talk. I was like, oh shit. What did I do wrong? Foreman was like, kid, you are cutting more parts in 5 hours than the day shift guy is cutting in 8. I was like, isn't that good? He was like, no. I need you to slow down a bit. Make sure you cut less parts than him. I was like, uh... OK.

So now I am working basically 3-6 and sitting on my hands from 6-8. Besides my saws, there were 3 Bullard VTLs in the building. Only the big 60" one had a night shift operator. He was an older dude close to retiring and I stared hangin out around him, shootin the shit, and watching what he did. I don't think he'd ever had a young person show any interest in what he did so he was always happy to tell me anything I wanted to know.

When I graduated there was an opening posted for an added night shift on the 36" Bullard and I needed a full time job, so I asked the foreman, can I have that job? He was like, kid, you ever run a lathe? I was like, nope. But I know the guy who runs it on days and he's a half retarded drunk. I think if he can run it, I can run it. Foreman was like, fair enough.

I used to run a Bullard. Even had a tracer on it I used for cutting contours.

[ghuns]

I used to run a Bullard. Even had a tracer on it I used for cutting contours.

Mine was WWII vintage. Still had the War Board production tag on it. Belt drive and foot shift.

We did have a smaller one, think it was 24", that was newer and was a 'Dynatrol'. No handles to crank. Had to be real careful pullin the levers on that one.

[Del.]

Mine was WWII vintage. Still had the War Board production tag on it. Belt drive and foot shift.

We did have a smaller one, think it was 24", that was newer and was a 'Dynatrol'. No handles to crank. Had to be real careful pullin the levers on that one.

Same here. I know it was from the 40's. I had to run when a big wad of chips came flying off around chuck.

[ghuns]

Same here. I know it was from the 40's. I had to run when a big wad of chips came flying off around chuck.

We had 3' lengths of Ø3/8" drill rod with the tips bent 90° about an inch long for pulling out stringers.

Dayshift retard got sick of it getting ripped out of his hand so he tapped the end of the shaft and put a screw with a huge fender washer on it.

I didn't know much, but I knew that was dangerous. When the old guy running the 60" saw him using it he walked over, smacked him upside the head, and threw it in the scrap dumpster.