DN Solutions (Doosan) SMX2600ST

YoDoug · April 19, 2023, 06:15 AM

Anyone here have any time on one of these? Thoughts on reliability, performance, accuracy, etc. Ideally we would like another Multus U3000 to match our existing U3000 but Okuma is saying 6+ months to get one and we can't wait that long. Ellison has one we could have in a few weeks.

Nakamura is coming in today to talk about a NTRX-300 or JX-250, but I don't think they can hit the price we need and the dealer is new to the line so they would really have to convince me they can support the machine.

gcode · April 19, 2023, 07:37 AM

Quote from: YoDoug on April 19, 2023, 06:15 AMIdeally we would like another Multus U3000 to match our existing U3000 but Okuma is saying 6+ months to get one and we can't wait that long

I would wait... bringing another brand of machine that speaks a different language than your Okumas will cause way more
problems than waiting 6 months.
It will mean new posts, new Vericut machines, learning a new control and new gcode.
And once you get it running it will be the bastard step child.
The files you build for it will not run on your Okuma's and you Okuma files will not run on the new machine.
We have 3 or 4 different makes and models of VTL's and HBM's and the problems that cause are endless.

YoDoug · April 19, 2023, 07:46 AM

Quote from: gcode on April 19, 2023, 07:37 AMI would wait... bringing another brand of machine that speaks a different language than your Okumas will cause way more
problems than waiting 6 months.
It will mean new posts, new Vericut machines, learning a new control and new gcode.
And once you get it running it will be the bastard step child.
The files you build for it will not run on your Okuma's and you Okuma files will not run on the new machine.
We have 3 or 4 different makes and models on VTL's and HBM's and the problems that cause are endless.

Unfortunately we are at capacity in our turning dept. We can't wait that long to make parts. They do have a Multus B300 coming in sooner, but that is not the ideal machine for these parts as they very milling heavy parts.

We already have 2 Multus B300's. We have intentionally built our machine capacity to have redundancies. We have 2 LT3000's, 3 Multus B series, 2 MB5000 500mm Horizontals, 2 M560 VMC, and 2 400mm 5X machines. The only machine we don't have redundant capacity is the Multus U3000. The SMX2600 is the exact same size travels, ATC, lower turret spec, etc. While it would require learning a new control and having to make new programs, that is only front end work. Once it is tooled up the same as the U3000 we could move parts around as production needs dictate.

On a personal note, the DN has a Fanuc control. I'd never hear the end of it from James for all the anti-Fanuc crap I have given him over the years.

YoDoug · April 19, 2023, 08:05 AM

Quote from: Newbeeee™ on April 19, 2023, 07:47 AM100% Tom!
Trouble is, it's not easy to put a value ($) on standardisation, but going away can absolutely kill you.
I'd sooner go with another (of the same) used machine to keep compatability over moving away altogether.
Doug - if Okuma are 6 months and Ellison is a month, that's only 5 different....have Omuma got any in Canada or Europe they can ship faster?
Or you sub 5 months of parts....

Okuma has a U4000 available immediately but it does not having milling on the lower turret, it's +$140K more in price, and way bigger than we need. To quote a salesman I worked with in the past, the U4000 making these parts is like an elephant effing a mouse.

mkd · April 19, 2023, 08:17 AM

I'd subcontract for a few months before bringing fanuc trash in my shop.
.
lol, kidding about trash.

permanent chain around a shop's neck for a temporary situation is not rational.

mkd · April 19, 2023, 08:21 AM

Quote from: YoDoug on April 19, 2023, 08:05 AMOkuma has a U4000 available immediately but it does not having milling on the lower turret, it's +$140K more in price, and way bigger than we need. To quote a salesman I worked with in the past, the U4000 making these parts is like an elephant effing a mouse.

Is there a risk of a vendor screwing up your shipments to the tune of $140k in this timeframe?

gcode · April 19, 2023, 09:41 AM

another huge issue with this will be training the machine operators
You Okuma guys will be newbs on the new machine, and if you hire Fanuc guys
they will be lost on your Okuma's
Instead of a tight crew of Okuma experts you will wind up with a crew of
that can kind of run both ... sort of .. and your experts will spend all their time
fixing all the screw ups..
I'm speaking from personal experience, 16 years at this place...

We've got a really nice TOS HBM here with a HEIDI control... the boss was so proud
It's a trade show special and he saved $30K on it....
We've given that $30K back 20 times over... at least
reprogramming for it
the machine sitting cause the guy who knows how to run it didn't come in today
developing tight proven files for it... that won't run anywhere else
etc etc etc

crazy^millman · April 19, 2023, 09:53 AM

End of the day the company is suffering from a good problem to have. Buy the machine get parts made and make more revenue while the getting is good. Things slow down then you have one of your first machines to put up for sale.

YoDoug · April 19, 2023, 12:43 PM

Quote from: crazy^millman on April 19, 2023, 09:53 AMEnd of the day the company is suffering from a good problem to have. Buy the machine get parts made and make more revenue while the getting is good. Things slow down then you have one of your first machines to put up for sale.

That's my line of thinking as well. Our automation systems run parts for 16+ hours a day unattended. The boss calls our existing Multus machines money printing presses. For us any open capacity is money not being made so if we have an opportunity to put new products into a new machine and have a little extra capacity, it just means more $$$$. Even if it comes with some learning curve.

Also, we are lucky in that the majority of our shop employees are under 30, they are not afraid of new machines like older machinists.

crazy^millman · April 19, 2023, 01:15 PM

Quote from: YoDoug on April 19, 2023, 12:43 PMThat's my line of thinking as well. Our automation systems run parts for 16+ hours a day unattended. The boss calls our existing Multus machines money printing presses. For us any open capacity is money not being made so if we have an opportunity to put new products into a new machine and have a little extra capacity, it just means more $$$$. Even if it comes with some learning curve.

Also, we are lucky in that the majority of our shop employees are under 30, they are not afraid of new machines like older machinists.

Tat is our job at the end of the day. Take what we got and make the most with it. Just got word about a customer ordering an new 5 Axis gantry machine and 12 months is the lead time. 8620 hours of lost production waiting for it. Shop rate is $235 an hour. Even if they only got 40 hours a week out of it that is $488,800 of lost revenues. Lets say your shop rate is only $50 an hour and your getting 16 hours a day out of the machine that is $201,600 of lost revenues. Reality that is double that because that is time you wouldn't have without it. Tell them to give me 20% of what that would be for a year and I will be glad to come in and get it up and running.

CNCAppsJames · April 19, 2023, 06:56 PM

You buy a FANUC machine... I'll fuckin' ROAST you mercilessly... for a post or two, then I'll.help any way I can.

The reality is gcode is 100% right on EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. It will create WAY more problems than the capacity problem it solves.

mkd · April 19, 2023, 08:49 PM

Would Okuma let you lease the U4000 at a good ol boys rate until the U3000 ships?

mkd · April 19, 2023, 08:50 PM

Quote from: CNCAppsJames on April 19, 2023, 06:56 PMYou buy a FANUC machine... I'll fuckin' ROAST you mercilessly... for a post or two, then I'll.help any way I can.

The reality is gcode is 100% right on EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. It will create WAY more problems than the capacity problem it solves.

That's why we love you

YoDoug · April 20, 2023, 08:26 AM

I guess I'm not really worried about operators. All of our operators are off white in color and say ABB on the side of them. In our lathe department 2 people keep six machines running but that is really just loading part trays and changing jaws. The programming/setup/prove-out of new parts would either be me or our main lathe programmer/setup guy. I'm not afraid of a new control and he has a lot of Nakamura and other Millturn experience before coming here 4 years ago.

I have more concerns over reliability and accuracy of DN compared to what we are used to in our Multus U3000.

crazy^millman · April 20, 2023, 09:58 AM

Quote from: YoDoug on April 20, 2023, 08:26 AMI guess I'm not really worried about operators. All of our operators are off white in color and say ABB on the side of them. In our lathe department 2 people keep six machines running but that is really just loading part trays and changing jaws. The programming/setup/prove-out of new parts would either be me or our main lathe programmer/setup guy. I'm not afraid of a new control and he has a lot of Nakamura and other Millturn experience before coming here 4 years ago.

I have more concerns over reliability and accuracy of DN compared to what we are used to in our Multus U3000.

Machine is a machine once you understand what the variations are then adjust for it and call it a day. Not a Nakamura or Euro-Tech, but DN has stepped up their capabilities in the last decade.