So it's official

[neurosis]

I should probably be careful about the way I word things.. lol. 

There was a bunch of shit in our post that didn't need to be coded in c# but it was. 

Bill had to weed through it and fix everything that broke with updates.

It took forever.  

We're a small shop. I'm not sure that we fit in to the US TS priority? 

[YoDoug]

Our posts were started by J. I'm sure you remember him? 

It was a labor getting them fixed.

Not shitting on J.  He was awesome to work with. Bill having to fix his shit took forever. 

Yeah we had a little of the same. J was an awesome C# guy. He often did more complex post mods in the C# end of the post, versus in the TS pot script language. Bill knows the TS script language better.

[mega]

TS had some short comings compared to SolidWorks when we purchased it. It's gotten a lot better over the years.

The machining side of it is hands down better than MC in almost every way. Except that they charge a fortune for pre-developed posts and machine definitions and want to charge a fortune for the privilege of developing your own.

I have a feeling that MC will do the same eventually?   

That is unlikely ,I think, MAstercams strategy has been so successful, because of their API's and post customization, which let's end users get stuff done that would be impossible in the base software,

the efforts to monetize and "lock stuff down" is being done using a strategy involving advanced machine simulation that is tied into the posts, but this is just an option,

I don't really see this happening, It would be the beginning of the end of Mastercam.. imo

[neurosis]

That is unlikely ,I think, MAstercams strategy has been so successful, because of their API's and post customization, which let's end users get stuff done that would be impossible in the base software,

I probably wouldn't be the best one to ask. There are several of us here who have used both now. At least one since MC was an infant.  I can only talk about my experience with TS.

I've used MC since v9.  Started using it more after it moved in to the X era. I was a Cimatron guy back in those days.

I can program parts in TS in a fraction of the time it takes me in MC.  And it's all a single integrated system.  I don't have to import models. I can use formulas when designing tooling.. 

Don't take my word for it. 

 

[neurosis]

If TS would make it easier for end users to develop their own posts I would have dumped MC 5 years ago.

[Brian]

Hi Neurosis:

First time post here (from a TS user who unfortunately can't offer any comparison to MC)....and I'm not trying to plug one program or another, anyway.

If it's any consolation to you, it's not like the TS post processor generator kit is any magical development environment. I have had it since forever (it came with the first version of TS I used, V6.5 I think it was) and we've renewed it when we've upgraded over the years.

I *do* agree that TS would do themselves a favor if they would recognize that many US users expect (demand!) to be able to edit their own posts (whether they really know what they're doing or not!). I don't know if they will ever come around to that point of view or not, but I share your opinion on this matter. When I first started to switch to V7 from V6 I hacked up my own mill posts, as I was orphaned (between dealers after the previous one separated from TS). My current dealer has finished up some things I couldn't figure out myself, and I was happy to pay him a nominal fee to do so. I still think TS needs to adjust their thinking on this matter.

I can't remember what version it was (maybe 7.13 or 7.14?), but I believe that posts supplied by your dealer are now encrypted. The PP kit allows you to decrypt them for editing, but prior to this they were just plain text files (unless you needed to make edits using C#). Occasionally I will make minor tweaks to mine (simple stuff that I can figure out on my own) but for the most part they're "done."

Summary: happy to have my dealer take care of this for me, still think they ought to let users edit this if they so choose!

Cheers, Brian

[mega]

I probably wouldn't be the best one to ask. There are several of us here who have used both now. At least one since MC was an infant.  I can only talk about my experience with TS.

I've used MC since v9.  Started using it more after it moved in to the X era. I was a Cimatron guy back in those days.

I can program parts in TS in a fraction of the time it takes me in MC.  And it's all a single integrated system.  I don't have to import models. I can use formulas when designing tooling.. 

Don't take my word for it. 

 

I was just saying i dont think the posts wont be locked down like that in mc anytime soon, I actually was very impressed with the ts stuff u showed, it sucks u had those problems with the dealer..

[neurosis]

If it's any consolation to you, it's not like the TS post processor generator kit is any magical development environment. I have had it since forever (it came with the first version of TS I used, V6.5 I think it was) and we've renewed it when we've upgraded over the years.

Yes, I agree.

Some of us (i use that term "us" loosely here) have been tinkering with their own posts since we started using CAM.

I hounded Cimatron to release their post compiler to me back in the late 90's. I wrote all of my own posts in Cimatron. 

One of my peeves with TS is that the documentation is lacking. That almost feels intentional because of seen some of their curriculum and it explains everything much better. Yet you have to pay for that. It's a racket I say, a racket!   

[neurosis]

I was just saying i dont think the posts wont be locked down like that in mc anytime soon, I actually was very impressed with the ts stuff u showed, it sucks u had those problems with the dealer..

Don't get me wrong here either, Pete.  I'm not trying to be argumentative.  There are things that I love about mastercam that I hate about TS. 

I hope that you're right regarding MC posts.   

[Brian]

One of my peeves with TS is that the documentation is lacking. That almost feels intentional because of seen some of their curriculum and it explains everything much better. Yet you have to pay for that. It's a racket I say, a racket!   

I've gotta agree with this one, too....I have been told that training is seen as a profit center by the company (i.e.-they want to sell you training with the s/w). I'm not sure that this is the entire explanation, but it makes some sense at least. To be fair, the training material I've seen is decent, perhaps not great, but it has gotten much better compared to what I first saw with V6 years back. The help files aren't wonderful, but again, they have gotten better over time.

The online learning material (https://learning.topsolid.com/) looks like it *might* be a step in the right direction, but I can't tell how much of this will be free and how much will be paid. I am only guardedly optimistic-LOL.

The help files are now online also, but still need work from my perspective.

Unfortunately, TS doesn't have enough of a presence here in the US to have created much free/user generated content on YT and the like, unlike the more popular programs such as MC, Fusion (gasp!), etc., etc. I don't know if TS realizes this (or cares?), but this works against their best interests IMHO.

[neurosis]

Unfortunately, TS doesn't have enough of a presence here in the US to have created much free/user generated content on YT and the like, unlike the more popular programs such as MC, Fusion (gasp!), etc., etc. I don't know if TS realizes this (or cares?), but this works against their best interests IMHO.

I don't think that the US side cares. I can't say that I blame them necessarily. I think that they're target is larger shops now.

[TSmcam]

I thought I would chuck in my 5c worth

Firstly, TopSolid's target isn't larger shops, it is all kinds of shops. At least from my perspective it is. I deal with France directly, and with the person I deal with, we see no difference between a small shop and a large shop.

Coming from many many years experience with Mastercam, the one thing I found quite different, was the Post Processor structure/encryption. If TopSolid had the same flexibility as Mastercams MP language, it would be the icing on the cake. However, I have for the most part, learnt to live with the TopSolid structure, and can make the posts pretty much do everything I want without resorting to C#.

Generally Fusion is skewing the market somewhat, especially for small shops. However, it is an Autodesk product, and that puts many people off. I was an Autodesk CAM reseller for a while, but the master Reseller (who I reported to), wouldn't let me touch/sell Fusion, as they wanted to keep it for themselves. I was left with HSMWorks and InventorHSM, and when they started undercutting me on InventorHSM sales (yep, undercutting their own reseller) with Fusion, I knew it was time to walk. That is the mentality of Autodesk and their master resellers. And a reflection of the company.

Having spent a lot of time with TopSolid, I now struggle going back to Mastercam. I've found the CAD/CAM integration (something I used to be against), now very productive, and for 3+2 and Mill/Turn work, I produce edit free code all the time.

[mega]

Don't get me wrong here either, Pete.  I'm not trying to be argumentative.  There are things that I love about mastercam that I hate about TS. 

I hope that you're right regarding MC posts.   

I hope so too, I would like to start writing mcposts soon

[Brian]

Having spent a lot of time with TopSolid, I now struggle going back to Mastercam. I've found the CAD/CAM integration (something I used to be against), now very productive, and for 3+2 and Mill/Turn work, I produce edit free code all the time.

Hi TSmcam:

I'm curious to hear what put you off the CAD/CAM integration initially...

[TSmcam]

Hi TSmcam:

I'm curious to hear what put you off the CAD/CAM integration initially...

Well, back then it was my more my blinkered Mastercam viewpoint. I believed that CAD, and CAM, should be seperate. I was 200% Mastercam through and through. Perhaps it was the simplicity of not having to worry about the CAD side of it. I spent a bunch of time with Unigraphics in the mid to late nineties, and that almost changed my mind, but I found UG a little cumbersome.
However, when I got on onboard with TopSolid, I made the mistake of trying to use it like Mastercam. Once I forced myself to "unlearn" and then re-approach TopSolid with a clean slate, I realised how good it was, especially the full integration.

It helps when cutting tools, machines, and workholding, whilst having those individual functions, are really effectively CAD assemblies.