How much would a new refinery cost?

[mkd]

Everyone knows it, EVEN the French.

Bidet campaigned on going to war with our oil industry and idiots voted for him. Just following through on a promise.
The next Republican POTUS is gonna get the Regan effect after taking over for Carter.

[gcode]

So in a machine shop when the cnc machines become old and worn out the owners will invariably choose to shut the place down? That could happen, but they will probably choose to buy new equipment, make internal modifications as needed and operate at better efficiency. Are you telling me that refinery is impossible to modernize? I don't buy it.

The problems with building new refineries are not technical or financial, they are political.
It is impossible to build or modernize a refinery in the US because your cannot get the permits.
and
If you do grease enough palms to get the permits, a legion of lawyers funded by green organizations will rise up
to stop you.

About 10 years ago there was a small refinery here in Cali. It was old inefficient and unsafe.
The state ordered them to fix it and threatened to shut them down.
They put together a retrofit plan but could not get through the permit process due to an infestation of lawyers.
In the end they decided to decommission it and tear it down.
The state and the labor unions sued to stop the shut down.
In the end, caught between two opposing packs of lawyers they filed bankruptcy and walked away.
I am sure they are still getting sued for decommissioning costs.

[pmartin]

Well then, how about building that refinery in a nice deep red, oil friendly state like Texas or Lousiana?

[gcode]

Well then, how about building that refinery in a nice deep red, oil friendly state like Texas or Lousiana?

eco terrorist funded lawyers do not respect borders and the suits are filed in Federal courts.
Spend 10 minutes reading the history of the KeyStone pipeline. Refineries face even worse obstacles

[gcode]

"I'm not going to fault Joe Biden for trying to secure the release of the hostages. Sometimes we have to deal with unsavory leaders in the interest of getting our people back. We've had to do the same thing with Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey and even the Iranian Mullahs in the past. But this trip involves some very uncomfortable realities for the White House that can't be ignored.  In case the President has forgotten, our government does not recognize Nicolas Maduro as the legitimate president of Venezuela. Nor does most of the civilized world. He stole the last election in 2018 and we recognize opposition leader Juan Guaido as the legitimate leader of that country. But now we're going back into negotiations with Maduro's people. . . .  Also, while it's not being announced through official channels, it seems obvious that the Citgo connection is giving the Biden administration an opportunity to speak to Maduro's people about the possibility of arranging for some oil exports for us. We're not supposed to be taking any oil from Venezuela because of the sanctions, but why let a little thing like that stop us, right? There's also the inconvenient fact that Russia now controls a majority interest in Venezuela's state oil company, PDVSA. So we are now apparently considering doing business indirectly with the Russians and an illegitimate socialist regime in South America rather than pumping our own oil domestically.  Fossil fuels are only bad if they come from America"]American oil is bad, 3rd world dictator oil is good"


https://instapundit.com/528376/

[ghuns]

So in a machine shop when the cnc machines become old and worn out the owners will invariably choose to shut the place down? That could happen, but they will probably choose to buy new equipment, make internal modifications as needed and operate at better efficiency. Are you telling me that refinery is impossible to modernize? I don't buy it.

For you analogy to make sense, add the part where the .gov is actively trying to put the machine shop out of business. To regulated the parts they produce out of existence.

Will the new equipment pay for itself before the .gov succeeds?

Will the next administration pursue the same policies?

How about the one after than?

[pmartin]

Food for thought guys.

[YoDoug]

Just playing devil's advocate here for the moment, so here is a question.

Why would the oil companies want to build in more refining capacity when it would only lead to lower prices and less profits?

Free markets don't operate that way. In order for a company to control supply enough to maintain margin requires a monopoly , which is illegal, or to collude with coopetitors, which is also illegal. I don't want to get all Reko about it, but as long as their are three or more viable provides for a good or service in a free market, history shows whoever gives the best value per cost will gain market share and overall profit. Typically it is when .gov creates regulations/restrictions that the market becomes out of balance to the laws of supply and demand. 

[pmartin]

Free markets don't operate that way. In order for a company to control supply enough to maintain margin requires a monopoly , which is illegal, or to collude with coopetitors, which is also illegal. I don't want to get all Reko about it, but as long as their are three or more viable provides for a good or service in a free market, history shows whoever gives the best value per cost will gain market share and overall profit. Typically it is when .gov creates regulations/restrictions that the market becomes out of balance to the laws of supply and demand. 

Unfortunately, "free markets" are not always so free.

Here in Chittenden County Vermont there are only two gas suppliers serving the area. Not coincidentally the price of gas and diesel averages about 30 cents a gallon more than in other parts of the state, including more remote areas. When Costco tried bringing in gas they were met by lawsuits. It took about five years but they are finally in business selling gas to members. Unfortunately, they are only allowed to operate for limited hours, 10 to 2 Monday to Saturday, all day on Sunday. Just to sweeten the pot the nearest gas station drops their prices to within 10 cents of Costco's prices, but only for the hours that Costco gas station is in operation. How free market is that?

[beej]

Unfortunately, "free markets" are not always so free.

Here in Chittenden County Vermont there are only two gas suppliers serving the area. Not coincidentally the price of gas and diesel averages about 30 cents a gallon more than in other parts of the state, including more remote areas. When Costco tried bringing in gas they were met by lawsuits. It took about five years but they are finally in business selling gas to members. Unfortunately, they are only allowed to operate for limited hours, 10 to 2 Monday to Saturday, all day on Sunday. Just to sweeten the pot the nearest gas station drops their prices to within 10 cents of Costco's prices, but only for the hours that Costco gas station is in operation. How free market is that?

pardon my rudeness, but I don't think that you'll have a free market in a state that elects someone like Bernie Sanders

[pmartin]

pardon my rudeness, but I don't think that you'll have a free market in a state that elects someone like Bernie Sanders

Wow, that is a phenomenally stupid thing to say. We also have a Republican Governor and a healthy free market. Have you even been to Vermont? If you are being sarcastic use an Emogee.

[beej]

Wow, that is a phenomenally stupid thing to say. We also have a Republican Governor and a healthy free market. Have you even been to Vermont? If you are being sarcastic use an Emogee.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I guess I'm just stupid sometimes. but you were the one that was complaining about the over-regulated state of things there. And somebody in the state must be voting for a man who openly declares himself a socialist. Was it you?

[gcode]

We also have a Republican Governor and a healthy free market.

as long as the Feds can issue decrees from DC there is no such thing as a free market.
I've heard Vermont is a pretty good place to live, but a little cold for my tastes
It would be cool to live there though cause I could vote against Bernie Sanders 

[beej]

Have you even been to Vermont?

I never have, but maybe some day. Is there flyfishing up there? It must be a nice place, I heard Bernie say that everybody has 2 or 3 houses.

[YoDoug]

Unfortunately, "free markets" are not always so free.

Here in Chittenden County Vermont there are only two gas suppliers serving the area. Not coincidentally the price of gas and diesel averages about 30 cents a gallon more than in other parts of the state, including more remote areas. When Costco tried bringing in gas they were met by lawsuits. It took about five years but they are finally in business selling gas to members. Unfortunately, they are only allowed to operate for limited hours, 10 to 2 Monday to Saturday, all day on Sunday. Just to sweeten the pot the nearest gas station drops their prices to within 10 cents of Costco's prices, but only for the hours that Costco gas station is in operation. How free market is that?

Definitely, .gov intervention can really affect free markets. On the other hand, absolute free markets without regulation can also be negative for the customer. There is a balance that needs to be met and it requires honest and morally upright people in both .gov and business. Unfortunately the quick profit and the thirst for power is gained easier through dishonesty, which is why we have the .gov and corp greed that we have.