Ramaswamy

[YoDoug]

Did I open a can of worms again, damn it! 

[neurosis]

We're all ganging up on ya, I didn't intend for that, but the thing is, abortion advocates look at at abortion as a medical procedure. Can you imagine those same people calling the death penalty a medical procedure? I'm pretty sure if rightwing politicians called the death penalty a medical procedure they would be pounced on, by all 4 branches of the Democratic party, (politicians, media, universities, corporate elitist)

I mean, I think I get the point that you're trying to make, but I can't draw that line in my head. 

Here is where the discussion heads toward "when does a fetus become sentient" and it's always a waste of time. I did have to laugh when Matt compared a fetus to a skin tag.   

Out of curiosity, do you think that lawmakers are crossing the line by forcing an unviable pregnancy to be carried to term? Or threatening jail time for going to other States.

[Jeff]

And there is another side to that, the doctor is wrong. One of my wife's coworkers, after numerous tests, was told the baby had serious defects and wouldn't survive after birth. They were told at around 6 months it would be best to abort. They said no. The baby is now over a year old and not a single thing wrong with it.

Makes you wonder if some of these doctors get paid per abortion.

[Jim at Gentex]

Makes you wonder if some of these doctors get paid per abortion.

The movie 'Unplanned' was an eye-opener for many people.
As a former director of a Planned Parenthood clinic, Abby Johnson found out first-hand that the abortion business is just that, a for-profit business. 

Side point:

Why can abortion advocates use the term 'anti-choice' to describe those who disagree with them, but abortion opponents can't use the term 'anti-life' in the same way?

Another double standard. 

[beej]

I mean, I think I get the point that you're trying to make, but I can't draw that line in my head. 

Here is where the discussion heads toward "when does a fetus become sentient" and it's always a waste of time. I did have to laugh when Matt compared a fetus to a skin tag.   

Out of curiosity, do you think that lawmakers are crossing the line by forcing an unviable pregnancy to be carried to term? Or threatening jail time for going to other States.

the sentient argument is a waste of time, by design. Because sentience, is not what anyone should be arguing for. A fertilized sea turtle egg is not protected because of it's ability to think like a sea turtle. it is protected because it is a sea turtle in the making.

Every single human being has value. a fetus is a human being. "human" because it has distinct DNA and "being" because it is alive and growing. A human being should have the right to life from it's beginning to it's natural end.

So now for your second question about it being non-viable. this particular baby is diagnosed with Trisomy-18. 95 percent of all babies born with that die prior to their first birthday. Many die within a few days of being born. I understand, from personal experience, how hard that is to hear that your baby has a condition like that.

it's hard to watch a baby suffer. it's hard to watch a 3 year old with cancer suffer. It's hard to watch a 10 year old with some disease suffer. It's hard to watch a 50 year old person suffer. People who are suffering one thing or another still have value. I recognize that the mother of a 3 year old who has cancer suffers too, and she may need help, but the help she needs is not someone telling her to euthanize her 3 year old child because he is going to die anyway. The 3 year old is a human being because he has distinct Human DNA and because he is a being. the Fetus has those 2 same basic traits.

My brother and his wife have been through this with 2 children. different disease but similar predictions of viability. Nathan lived for 11 months and never came home from the hospital. Joseph lived for 7 hours. It was very hard for my brother and his wife. He would be the first to tell you, "Hard does not equal bad." Hard is often beautiful.  And I'll tell you. I got to hold both of those babies. They were beautiful and they made an impact on my life that has changed me forever.

You know, when we celebrate a birthday, we are not celebrating a person's sentience. we are not celebrating what they have done, or what they have contributed to society, or that they have 10 fingers and toes. We are simply celebrating that they "are".  When you think about that, it really is beautiful.

[neurosis]

So IOW, you're ok with lawmakers deciding for the woman (forcing her), regardless of viability, to carry the pregnancy to term?

[mowens]

So IOW, you're ok with lawmakers deciding for the woman (forcing her), regardless of viability, to carry the pregnancy to term?

Yeah, it was a lot of words with no answer. 

[beej]

So IOW, you're ok with lawmakers deciding for the woman (forcing her), regardless of viability, to carry the pregnancy to term?

yes, in the same way that I would want lawmaker to make it illegal for a mother to end the life of a 3 month old baby.

I'm not, however advocating for the mother to be put in prison for ending a pregnancy. The people who would be willing to do that to a baby should be shown the same penalty as a hired hitman though. because they are not only doing the same job as a hired hitman, they are profiting off a woman in deep grief. And for the record Texas law would not put her in prison for getting that abortion done. that is just hyperbole from pro-abortion groups.

[beej]

Yeah, it was a lot of words with no answer. 

If you read that and didn't get an answer you weren't looking for an answer. 

[neurosis]

yes, in the same way that I would want lawmaker to make it illegal for a mother to end the life of a 3 month old baby.

She was told that *if* the baby survived at all, it would likely be only for minutes. She was also told by her doctor, if she carried the pregnancy to term, there was a very good chance she would become infertile, meaning not only would she lose this baby, but may not ever be able to have another. The decision being made by lawmakers, not her and her doctor, is fuckin retarded in my opinion.

Here is some of what was said in one of the articles I read.

She knew her fetus was developing with a twisted spine, clubbed feet, irregular skull and heart development, and she'd gone to the emergency room three times in the last month for cramping, diarrhea and unexplained fluid leakage.

The amniocentesis confirmed her fetus was developing with full trisomy 18, an extreme chromosomal abnormality. If her child was born alive at all, they would survive only minutes, hours or days outside of the womb.

Cox's pregnancy was going to end in heartbreak. The only question was when. Cox and her husband wanted to end "the pain and suffering that has plagued this pregnancy," she said in a statement.

"I do not want to put my body through the risks of continuing this pregnancy," she said. "I do not want to continue until my baby dies in my belly or I have to deliver a stillborn baby or one where life will be measured in hours or days."

I'm glad that she fought this and hopefully it sets a precedence going forward.  Agree with abortion or not, I think that the Texas law makers in this case, were not only wrong, but were arrogant in their zealotry and could have screwed this woman up for the rest of her life. What's more sad, to me anyway, is that they would have seen that as a victory. 

[Smit]

I'm glad that she fought this and hopefully it sets a precedence going forward.  Agree with abortion or not, I think that the Texas law makers in this case, were not only wrong, but were arrogant in their zealotry and could have screwed this woman up for the rest of her life. What's more sad, to me anyway, is that they would have seen that as a victory.

The majority of Republicans would also have considered it a victory.

[beej]

The majority of Republicans would also have considered it a victory.

maybe some would. I don't see it as a victory at all. I'm saddened by the whole situation. I'm sad for the parents, and I'm sad for the child.

[beej]

She was told that *if* the baby survived at all, it would likely be only for minutes. She was also told by her doctor, if she carried the pregnancy to term, there was a very good chance she would become infertile, meaning not only would she lose this baby, but may not ever be able to have another. The decision being made by lawmakers, not her and her doctor, is fuckin retarded in my opinion.

Here is some of what was said in one of the articles I read.

I'm glad that she fought this and hopefully it sets a precedence going forward.  Agree with abortion or not, I think that the Texas law makers in this case, were not only wrong, but were arrogant in their zealotry and could have screwed this woman up for the rest of her life. What's more sad, to me anyway, is that they would have seen that as a victory.

did it ever occur to you that, that Dr who used to be able to perform abortions, needed someone with standing to appear before the court and used this woman to do it, for the reason of enriching herself.

And did you ever ask yourself, in a climate where abortion is popular, what reason republicans have for wanting to stop, mostly minority voters, who are likely to grow up and vote for Democrats, from getting abortions?

It's easy for me to speculate why that Dr could potentially exaggerate a woman's potential risks, so that she has standing before the court, so that she could make more money in the long run doing what she does best. But why do the Republicans work against their own self-interest to stop abortion?

[neurosis]

did it ever occur to you that, that Dr who used to be able to perform abortions, needed someone with standing to appear before the court and used this woman to do it, for the reason of enriching herself.

Oh for fucks sakes, Beej.    Is everything a conspiracy with Republicans?

So just in case this could possible be some strange conspiracy to push "big abortion"  (see what I did there? )  Fuck this woman and her health - and any anyone else in the same position as well.

[beej]

Oh for fucks sakes, Beej.    Is everything a conspiracy with Republicans?

So just in case this could possible be some strange conspiracy to push "big abortion"  (see what I did there? )  Fuck this woman and her health - and any anyone else in the same position as well.

The doctor told her that if she had that baby it would be her 3rd cesarean. Which would possibly keep her from ever having children again. My mom, had 7 cesareans. (not uncommon for catholics at the time)