Getting your money's worth

[Del.]

lol I've never been dumb on purpose.  But I'm smart enough to see that Soros is hurting the democratic party more than he is helping them. (Thinking specifically about the soft-on-crime large city prosecutors he has endorsed, which is nearly always a win for them.) And if that doesn't frustrate you, to the point that you could admit it. then it seems obvious to me that if Musk were doing exactly what he is doing now, but doing it for the democratic party, you also would not admit that you don't like it.

Also, before the election, you told me you wanted the southern border protected better. You thought Kamala would be better at that than Trump. Border crossings have dropped to almost nothing now. Down by 94% according to CBS. So could you admit that Trump is doing a good job at something that was important to you?

He wouldn't give Trump credit for anything.

[Smit]

Also, before the election, you told me you wanted the southern border protected better. You thought Kamala would be better at that than Trump. Border crossings have dropped to almost nothing now. Down by 94% according to CBS. So could you admit that Trump is doing a good job at something that was important to you?

You know, my wife does that too. She makes shit up and then makes believe it's true. 

But people sure don't seem to want to immigrate here anymore. He's done it by using draconian punishments to the people that have come here, most trying to escape from pretty horrible conditions. Shipping people off to prisons in other countries, lying and breaking laws to ship people off without due process, etc etc.

As a Republican I'm sure you love that. As a Christian, well, I don't see how that fits in with your other beliefs. Honestly I think you're the only christian here who would even consider giving a shit about that.

Yeah, I know, they're disease carrying rapists and murderers who are eating the pets.

The French want their statue back too.

Is it good? Not in a perfect world. It's probably a lot cheaper and faster than trying to do it in a more humanitarian manner.

The real question is whether it's good policy or not. I'm not sure how history will judge that, pertaining strictly to immigration/deportation policy. Considering his stated goal of bringing work back to the United States I've gotta wonder where the workers are going to come from. Trump inherited a healthy economy with low unemployment and a high stock market. If jobs come back we might have to encourage immigration again.

But most importantly we're not talking about Musk and Trump anymore are we? The whataboutisms you're famous for are in full force today!

[Del.]

You know, my wife does that too. She makes shit up and then makes believe it's true. 

But people sure don't seem to want to immigrate here anymore. He's done it by using draconian punishments to the people that have come here, most trying to escape from pretty horrible conditions. Shipping people off to prisons in other countries, lying and breaking laws to ship people off without due process, etc etc.

As a Republican I'm sure you love that. As a Christian, well, I don't see how that fits in with your other beliefs. Honestly I think you're the only christian here who would even consider giving a shit about that.

Yeah, I know, they're disease carrying rapists and murderers who are eating the pets.

The French want their statue back too.

Is it good? Not in a perfect world. It's probably a lot cheaper and faster than trying to do it in a more humanitarian manner.

The real question is whether it's good policy or not. I'm not sure how history will judge that, pertaining strictly to immigration/deportation policy. Considering his stated goal of bringing work back to the United States I've gotta wonder where the workers are going to come from. Trump inherited a healthy economy with low unemployment and a high stock market. If jobs come back we might have to encourage immigration again.

But most importantly we're not talking about Musk and Trump anymore are we? The whataboutisms you're famous for are in full force today!

Illegal immigrants aren't afforded due process

[Del.]

You know, my wife does that too. She makes shit up and then makes believe it's true. 

But people sure don't seem to want to immigrate here anymore. He's done it by using draconian punishments to the people that have come here, most trying to escape from pretty horrible conditions. Shipping people off to prisons in other countries, lying and breaking laws to ship people off without due process, etc etc.

As a Republican I'm sure you love that. As a Christian, well, I don't see how that fits in with your other beliefs. Honestly I think you're the only christian here who would even consider giving a shit about that.

Yeah, I know, they're disease carrying rapists and murderers who are eating the pets.

The French want their statue back too.

Is it good? Not in a perfect world. It's probably a lot cheaper and faster than trying to do it in a more humanitarian manner.

The real question is whether it's good policy or not. I'm not sure how history will judge that, pertaining strictly to immigration/deportation policy. Considering his stated goal of bringing work back to the United States I've gotta wonder where the workers are going to come from. Trump inherited a healthy economy with low unemployment and a high stock market. If jobs come back we might have to encourage immigration again.

But most importantly we're not talking about Musk and Trump anymore are we? The whataboutisms you're famous for are in full force today!

So just let tens of millions in! Gotcha!!

[beej]

You know, my wife does that too. She makes shit up and then makes believe it's true. 

But people sure don't seem to want to immigrate here anymore. He's done it by using draconian punishments to the people that have come here, most trying to escape from pretty horrible conditions. Shipping people off to prisons in other countries, lying and breaking laws to ship people off without due process, etc etc.

As a Republican I'm sure you love that. As a Christian, well, I don't see how that fits in with your other beliefs. Honestly I think you're the only christian here who would even consider giving a shit about that.

Yeah, I know, they're disease carrying rapists and murderers who are eating the pets.

The French want their statue back too.

Is it good? Not in a perfect world. It's probably a lot cheaper and faster than trying to do it in a more humanitarian manner.

The real question is whether it's good policy or not. I'm not sure how history will judge that, pertaining strictly to immigration/deportation policy. Considering his stated goal of bringing work back to the United States I've gotta wonder where the workers are going to come from. Trump inherited a healthy economy with low unemployment and a high stock market. If jobs come back we might have to encourage immigration again.

But most importantly we're not talking about Musk and Trump anymore are we? The whataboutisms you're famous for are in full force today!

I can freely admit that there are things that Trump does that I don't like. But If Trump sends alien criminals back to their own country, even Obama was in favor of that. And I support it as well. (there's video evidence of him saying exactly that)

As far as my christian values go, I want a strong border. I have no problem with increased legal immigration, and I believe every single person should be treated with dignity and respect. I'd be in favor of amnesty for the illegal immigrants that are here that have lived law abiding lives (aside from the illegal border crossing) so long as the border is protected to keep more illegal immigration from happening, because the amnesty would tend to cause incentive for more illegal crossings.

terrible things were happening to illegal immigrants under Biden's watch because of his policies. All you have to do is pay attention to the stories they tell about how they got here.

ok let's talk about Musk some more now. When you complain about Musk. You keep bringing up that what he is doing is unprecedented. Is it really lack of precedent that bothers you? If this question sounds like whataboutism to you it's only because I use it as a method of getting right to the heart of the argument rather than the darts that keep getting thrown at the wall by democrats. I really don't believe that precedent is the thing that bothers you. Precedent doesn't matter to any of us, because republicans are not complaining about precedent now with Musk, and democrats weren't complaining about precedent when Trump was being prosecuted by his political rivals. In both cases, the party doing the unprecedented thinks that unprecedented action was necessary.  How's that for intentional obtuse-ness?

[Smit]

The first part is fair enough.

terrible things were happening to illegal immigrants under Biden's watch because of his policies. All you have to do is pay attention to the stories they tell about how they got here.

A brutal voyage indeed. That wasn't because of Biden policies.

ok let's talk about Musk some more now. When you complain about Musk. You keep bringing up that what he is doing is unprecedented. Is it really lack of precedent that bothers you? If this question sounds like whataboutism to you it's only because I use it as a method of getting right to the heart of the argument rather than the darts that keep getting thrown at the wall by democrats. I really don't believe that precedent is the thing that bothers you. Precedent doesn't matter to any of us, because republicans are not complaining about precedent now with Musk, and democrats weren't complaining about precedent when Trump was being prosecuted by his political rivals. In both cases, the party doing the unprecedented thinks that unprecedented action was necessary.  How's that for intentional obtuse-ness?

Precedent is something that comes in to play when Repugs start comparing apples and oranges. Precedent is something from that past that shows how things have been interpreted and implemented.

Precedent is a whataboutism that's employed to avoid talking about the damage being done by Trump and his pack of sycophants, especially Musk.

[neurosis]

Illegal immigrants aren't afforded due process

Is that true? Because I've never heard that before. 

[Del.]

Is that true? Because I've never heard that before. 

That's for Citizens.

[mowens]

Such a waste of time and evergy. Thinking one party is better than another.

[beej]

Precedent is something that comes in to play when Repugs start comparing apples and oranges. Precedent is something from that past that shows how things have been interpreted and implemented.

Precedent is a whataboutism that's employed to avoid talking about the damage being done by Trump and his pack of sycophants, especially Musk.

I have no idea what any of that means and I read it several times so as not to be called intentionally dumb. But for the sake of an argument that I can grasp, could we just talk about what damage you think is being done rather than focusing on whether there is precedent or not, because I really don't think most democrats care about precedent.

[neurosis]

That's for Citizens.

"Despite the government's broad power over immigration, the Supreme Court has recognized that aliens who have physically entered the United States generally come under the protective scope of the Due Process Clause, which applies "to all 'persons' within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent." 1"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-5/removal-of-aliens-who-have-entered-the-united-states

[neurosis]

(Thinking specifically about the soft-on-crime large city prosecutors he has endorsed, which is nearly always a win for them.) And if that doesn't frustrate you, to the point that you could admit it. then it seems obvious to me that if Musk were doing exactly what he is doing now, but doing it for the democratic party, you also would not admit that you don't like it.

It pisses me off.  Although I have no idea how many of the prosecutors in my County were backed by Soros. The last decade or so, and especially since Covid, we've seen some of the (in my opinion) dumbest laws passed to make it easier on low level criminals to get a free pass. Some times let back out a dozen times or more to commit the same crimes. 

[Smit]

But for the sake of an argument that I can grasp, could we just talk about what damage you think is being done rather than focusing on whether there is precedent or not, because I really don't think most democrats care about precedent.

Since you apparently haven't been following along, or you've been listening to right wing media who will do nothing but praise Trump (and Elon), I'll post a few quick links. If you want to find out more do a little research.

Excerpt:
Cybersecurity Experts Are Sounding the Alarm on DOGE

Since January, Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) has carved up federal programs, removing positions related to hazardous waste removal, veteran support and disease control, among others. While many have already been affected, cybersecurity experts worry about the impacts not yet realized in the form of hacks, fraud, and privacy breaches.

DOGE has fired top cybersecurity officers from various agencies, gutted the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Agency (CISA), and cancelled at least 32 cybersecurity-related contracts with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Cybersecurity experts, including those fired by DOGE, argue that the agency has demonstrated questionable practices toward safeguarding the vast amount of personal data the government holds, including in agencies such as the Social Security Administration and the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). Last week, a court filing revealed that a DOGE staffer violated Treasury Department policy by sending an email containing unencrypted personal information.

Some of DOGE's Damage Can't Be Undone

Excerpt:

Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency is sowing confusion and chaos, ordering mass firings of government employees and canceling programs despite having no formal legal authority. In a recent decision, Federal District Court Judge Tanya Chutkan noted that Musk's actions likely violate the Constitution because he has not been appointed by the president nor confirmed by the Senate. Yet the judge rejected a lawsuit to stop DOGE brought by 14 state attorneys general because she held they lacked standing since they had not identified the specific harms their states suffered.
The AGs' lawsuit, which was filed when Musk was just getting started, can be brought again with more facts to support it. There will also be other lawsuits by individuals who have already lost their jobs and clearly have standing to challenge DOGE's legality. Some of these lawsuits will likely prevail, and some district court judge, possibly Chutkan, will likely order DOGE to pause its operations in the coming weeks. The Trump administration will appeal, but the irregularity of DOGE is so obvious, legally speaking, that the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit will almost certainly affirm the lower court. The Supreme Court is likely to let lower court decisions stand, finding DOGE's actions unlawful.

[Del.]

"Despite the government's broad power over immigration, the Supreme Court has recognized that aliens who have physically entered the United States generally come under the protective scope of the Due Process Clause, which applies "to all 'persons' within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent." 1"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-5/removal-of-aliens-who-have-entered-the-united-states

I may be wrong but that whole link sounds iffy.

[neurosis]

I may be wrong but that whole link sounds iffy.

A link to Cornell Law School sounds iffy?