Learning manual machining-still worthwhile in today's world or skip to CNC?

[Brian]

Hey all:

I was recently asked in a PM on LinkedIn if I thought it made sense to take some manual machining classes in addition to the CNC-focused curriculum they're currently enrolled in. This got me thinking: I got going in this crazy biz in a roundabout way (making bicycle frames, not machining per se) that began with using stuff like a Bridgeport, engine lathe, lotsa hand tools and elbow grease, so I kinda feel it's natural to be able to do these things! But I'm 59 and that wasn't unusual at the time (early '80's). This person is probably early 20's from what I'm guessing and now lives in a world where lots of life is technologically-enhanced (I know...."ahem!"), our workplaces included.

So I am curious to hear from folks here about how important (or not) it would be to take some of the manual machining courses that are still part of the curriculum at this local community college. (It looks like there are several different paths that are tailored to things like CNC machining/programming as well as things like toolmaking or maintenance machining).

I'd love to know folk's ages (if you are comfortable sharing this) too, as I have always assumed that we're just naturally biased to favor what we grew up with.

My wife refers to things like this as the "analog world" (driving a car with a manual transmission, playing an LP, developing film) and the "digital world" (taking an Uber/Lyft, YouTube/Spotify, etc for music, cell phone pix). It's funny to be old enough to remember the old stuff and also be totally comfy with the new stuff-kinda trippy sometimes!

My mental model of all this is actually unchanged from my youth; all through time man has always used tools in all sorts of ways, and the (human) skill of the tool-user has always been important. The tools may allow you to easily do things that were once difficult, or even do at all what was once impossible, but that process was still human-centric. 

Maybe in the dawning age of AI and drone warfare this requires a rethink, but for now let's limit the scope of the question to "cranking handles" or " button pushing."

Cheers, Brian

[mkd]

I hate manual machines with a passion.
 Case by case basis
2.cents

[Newbeeee™]

Manual machining is now only useful when something CNC, needs troubleshooting....

[neurosis]

The first shop I worked in back in the mid 80's, had three CNC machines and about 30 manual machines. You had to know your way around the manual machines, and I remember people hating being stuck on the CNC's.

Now, It seems like it's getting a lot less common to find anyone with manual experience. We do still have some manual work in our shop, but not much. We do all of our own broaching, but that's a different animal.

I think that I've forgotten most of what I learned on the manuals at this point. I can still fake it if I need to but I won't touch one unless there's no other choice.   

[RetiredRoger]

I vote for at the very least 1 year of manual machining to get the basics down.  Like, speeds and feeds, fixturing, etc.

I think I've mentioned it before here on the forum, but I'll repost an experience I had while taking Mastercam courses. 

A prime example of having at the very least some knowledge of machining before CNC.  There was a lady in the course one night that wanted to know why you couldn't mill a slot with a drill bit.

Need I say more.

I'm 66 years old, and spent almost all those years from when I was 20 tell I retired at 62 in the machining trade.  Half of that was running manual machines.

[JParis]

Depends on the individual and what they want to be able to do.

I come from a time when you were given a print and you made the part. Turning, milling, EDM, heat treat, grinding. Sharpening and grinding the tools you required.

I'll grant I don't physically use those skills anymore but the processes and things they taught are at the basis of all I know and do.

If someone wants to be able work in different areas and be capable of jumping throughout the shop, it's still a valuable skill.

Does a CNC Machinist need those skills, not really but they can certainly help.

JM2C

[mkd]

Any computer science major should have at least a year on the abacus.😃

[Newbeeee™]

The first shop I worked in back in the mid 80's, had three CNC machines and about 30 manual machines. You had to know your way around the manual machines, and I remember people hating being stuck on the CNC's.

During my apprenticeship, I loathed the things. Granted I was between toolmaking and modelshop, which to me was really interesting.
Button pushing....making large batches etc was not on my radar. I only scraped through those exams with a pass.
If only young Newb had a crystal ball....
 

[Brian]

Thanks for all of the input, guys!

I guess I should have clarified the question a bit further by saying "do you think it makes sense to learn some manual machining skills because it will help you to learn the basic physics of cutting metal by any means, manual or CNC?"

I get it that the commercially-viable applications of manual machining are less common today than when most of us got going, but my personal belief is that it's still good to go thru some of the basics (manually) first.

[Brian]

I come from a time when you were given a print and you made the part. Turning, milling, EDM, heat treat, grinding. Sharpening and grinding the tools you required.

I totally get this! It's exactly the mindset I got from frame building, so I just kinda carried it forward into machining manually at first, and then onto CNC work. It's an expression of your abilities as well as (potentially) an efficient process.

I will also concede that it may be a misapplication of highly-skilled (read "expensive") labor when less-skilled labor (or automation) will match or exceed the performance of the first method.

[Brian]

There was a lady in the course one night that wanted to know why you couldn't mill a slot with a drill bit.

Yeah, this is a great example....sometimes more tech isn't what is required, it's actually more "horse sense."

This sort of thing reminds me of that great Will Rogers quote: "There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

(In other words, I find it highly likely that she would have already known the answer to her own question had she been given the chance to test her hypothesis).

[Brian]

Depends on the individual and what they want to be able to do.

Yeah, there's more to unpack here, too.... sometimes the "what do you want to be able to do" is "make the most parts for the least cost as quickly as possible" (sounds like production-type work to me). Other times it might be "I gotta fix this thing up and get it going til the replacement parts arrive next week" (maybe a maintenance/repair job), or offer DFM advice to the engineers early in their design process (sort of model maker/R&D machinist type work in a med device company, for example).

[CNCAppsJames]

Is manual machining absolutely necessary?  No. 

That said, it IS helpful and does teach things that can be of use when Troubleshooting CNC Machining 100% 

[gcode]

I'm 70 years old.
My first experience with machining was as a drill press operator.
I put an aluminum casting in cubic fixture and moved it from station to station down a bank of about 12 drill presses.
Calling it boring would be an upgrade. There was a large box of parts on the left side of the drill press banks and another on the right. Over a period of months the box on the left got emptier. The box on the right with the finished parts was cleaned out daily. One morning I did the last part in the box and went on break. When I came back from break, there was a new box full of parts waiting for me. I quit and moved on. This was 1973 and I was making 90 cents an hour.
In 1975 I joined the USMC and ended up in a course called "Repair Shop Machinist" All the equipment was WW2 vintage
technology, leather belt driven lathes, mills, and shapers. My work in the Marines was mostly removing broken
bolts from M60 tanks and AA7 amphibious assault vehicles. There was very little actual machining.
I worked in job shops in SoCal after my discharge in '79 as a manual lathe/mill machinists. I did get some exposure
to early CNC lathes and 2.5 axis CNC mills.
In the mid 80's I was part owner of a small shop. Through a decade of very hard work we acquired 2 Haas VF1's and a
Takisawa 8"CNC chucker.
Gary Sladek (sp?) of Machining Time Savers sold me an old CAM system called Anicam and I taught myself to use it.
There was no internet, Google or customer support, just me and a 12" tall stack of manuals. It was a very steep
climb.
I purchased Mastercam V7 in 1998, fell out with my partner in 2001, and have made my living as a programmer ever since. I haven't run or personally set up a CNC machine since 2005.
To answer the original question, I think some exposure to manual machines would be useful for people coming into the trade, but I don't see it happening.

[Newbeeee™]

When I was back in UK a month ago, I dropped into a customer and he said that all the local colleges (affluent south of England) dropped machining a few years ago.
All they now offer is "tech design" - CAD.