"Esprit for mill/turn and Mastercam for Mill" Why?

[JParis]

if find someone good, they will learn and adapt to whatever software is put before them.

There is a flip side to this....

Take someone like myself with a lot of time & experience and willing & able to learn new software....

I am going to weigh VERY HEAVILY the software vs the $$$....

If I am going to command a high dollar, does a company really want to pay me that top dollar and then have my production, flexibility and experience for the next however many months....

Not in recent years but in the past I turned jobs down for just this reason...if you're going to pay to leverage my ability and experience, I am not going to end up under performing, then have questions about the move.

[TSmcam]

There is a flip side to this....

Take someone like myself with a lot of time & experience and willing & able to learn new software....

I am going to weigh VERY HEAVILY the software vs the $$$....

If I am going to command a high dollar, does a company really want to pay me that top dollar and then have my production, flexibility and experience for the next however many months....

Not in recent years but in the past I turned jobs down for just this reason...if you're going to pay to leverage my ability and experience, I am not going to end up under performing, then have questions about the move.

But, the flip side to that flip side, is that if the company is realistic, they will understand the time and commitment required for that individual to get up to speed. I witnessed this with two NX programmers who came on board with a TopSolid company. They took next to no time in getting up to speed with the software, and all the while they company was paying them top dollar. They're now two very experienced TopSolid programmers, and are just as productive as they were with NX.

Outcome? These two programmers now have skills with NX, and TopSolid, and the company has gained two valuable employees, who are also enjoying the high dollar based on their experience.

The company was realistic in expectations. Thats the difference. In both software and employees

[JParis]

Yup, it is achievable...IF the company has reasonable expectations

[TSmcam]

Yup, it is achievable...IF the company has reasonable expectations

And if the company isn't reasonable about expectations, then one has to question whether it is a company worth working for...

The old "software familiarity" flag gets a bit old. I've seen people labour away with their Mastercam at Mill/Turn, because it is "familiar" only to find when they finally switch to something else, and better programming productivity, that they wonder why they didn't do it sooner

[gcode]

I've been following the CNC Programmer help wanted adds here in SoCal
for 30 years.
I have never once seen a listing for a Top Solid guy.
From the numbers I was getting 8 years ago when I checked it out
it would have cost about $70K to buy one seat and posts for our Okuma MU1000 and VTM YB1200.
Add a couple of seats and posts for a couple of different flavors of HBM 3+2 and C axis VTL's
and you're north of a quarter million pretty quick.
Add in the cost of training, and productivity loss while your guys get up to speed and the numbers
just don't work, no matter how good the software may or may not be.

[TSmcam]

I've been following the CNC Programmer help wanted adds here in SoCal
for 30 years.
I have never once seen a listing for a Top Solid guy.
From the numbers I was getting 8 years ago when I checked it out
it would have cost about $70K to buy one seat and posts for our Okuma MU1000 and VTM YB1200.
Add a couple of seats and posts for a couple of different flavors of HBM 3+2 and C axis VTL's
and you're north of a quarter million pretty quick.
Add in the cost of training, and productivity loss while your guys get up to speed and the numbers
just don't work, no matter how good the software may or may not be.

Doesn't work for everyone. I get your experience Gcode, I really do.

My experience down here is different. One company went from Mastercam to TS (multiple licenses) and has gained better programming productivity, and gets far better support. Of course the reseller here is a schlep (but you know the story).

A seat cost for and posts for your machine would be considerably less down here than what is quoted in your region (Mill 5 axis, Turn, Posts and Machine Defintions and that is todays price). Not sure why there is such a disparity.

[gcode]

A seat cost for and posts for your machine would be considerably less down here

I never requested a formal quote, but if I remember correctly, the numbers were
$30k for the software and $20k each for 2 5axis Okuma posts.

[Jeff]

$20k each for 2 5axis Okuma posts.

WTF? That's insane.
What machines?

Our 5ax post for the Genos M560V was only like $3k-ish iirc.
And our post for the LB3000EX-II MWY lathe with sub spindle and live tooling was about the same.

[gcode]

WTF? That's insane.
What machines?

Our 5ax post for the Genos M560V was only like $3k-ish iirc.
And our post for the LB3000EX-II MWY lathe with sub spindle and live tooling was about the same.

Okuma MU1000H horizontal 5X HBM
Okuma VTM-1200 YB 5 x VTL

As I said, I never got formal quotes but those are the number mentioned.
Number's like that are routine for Catia posts as well
I got quotes in the $15/20K range from NX as well.
Maybe they thought I was a sucker, ripe for easy pickings??
This was back in 2013/14.. maybe prices have gotten more competitive
in the last decade???

[Jeff]

Maybe they thought I was a sucker, ripe for easy pickings??

Maybe your company has tons of money and they figured they could overcharge?
My Sandvik salesman told me that they don't give big aerospace shops a discount, they pay full price because they can.

[gcode]

Maybe your company has tons of money and they figured they could overcharge?
My Sandvik salesman told me that they don't give big aerospace shops a discount, they pay full price because they can.

I don't know
At one point we had a seat of Unigraphics (which is now NX)
When Siemens bought them, they turned over management of all the "small business" accounts to TaTa Technology (an Indian tech company) Small business was defined as under $100 million in annual sales,
which is most definitely us!!!
I was trying to buy a post and get some training for our new Okuma MU.
I knew next to nothing about NX, but I knew more than the Tata Tech rep did.
The numbers he was quoting me were off the charts.
We'd been of maintenance for 1 year and our license server crashed.
They demanded $1500 for a new license and I told them to pound sand.

[Jeff]

We'd been of maintenance for 1 year and our license server crashed.
They demanded $1500 for a new license and I told them to pound sand.

That reminds me, In case this applies to anyone on the forum here.. Mastercam is offering free version upgrades for those off maintenance, (just pay the maint fee)
Also offering 40% off tier upgrades.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Brian]

I never requested a formal quote, but if I remember correctly, the numbers were
$30k for the software and $20k each for 2 5axis Okuma posts.

I mentioned this to our TS dealer, and he thought that something was out of whack with these numbers! Of course, this isn't to be considered the gospel, but he figured ~$15-20K for the s/w itself, and $1K per axis for custom posts. He did mention that there was likely more variability in mill/turn posts with complex machines but was still puzzled that this could approach the prices you were quoted.

[gcode]

I mentioned this to our TS dealer

as far as I know there is only 1 TS dealer in the US
so it's probably the same people I dealt with 10 years ago
so
I must be remembering it wrong. maybe that was a rough number for all the machines in the shop
47 machines total  probably 15/20 different posts

[TSmcam]

Okuma MU1000H horizontal 5X HBM
Okuma VTM-1200 YB 5 x VTL

As I said, I never got formal quotes but those are the number mentioned.
Number's like that are routine for Catia posts as well
I got quotes in the $15/20K range from NX as well.
Maybe they thought I was a sucker, ripe for easy pickings??
This was back in 2013/14.. maybe prices have gotten more competitive
in the last decade???

Without getting into specific pricing, I can honestly say since I have worked with TS, that those post prices are not what you would pay. Nor have they changed over my time (much at all)

The MU post is pretty much dialled, and I would expect you would pay a fraction of that, and about the same for the machine kinematic model. I've used the MU post in anger and it covers everything fine. The VTM is a little different, but the base P200/P300 post could easily be adapted to suit that machine, so again, not that much more.

Actually, in checking, I have seen documentation from Okuma listing CAM posts by software for their machines. TS is shown covering the Multus, VTMs, MU's and Double Columns. All are shown as completed and tested, so they would have been easily covered.

The base price for Design, Mill 2D-5D and Turning would be about 35-30k for the software. If you were dealing with the sales guy, then I would suspect that is why the numbers are out.

I know what you mean about NX though. When I dealt with it, the pricing went through the roof. We didn't have that for long (not to mention, the posts were a nightmare to get sorted)