Go blind and get arrested

[mowens]

I never said that, at all, and if that's what it sounded like I was saying, then I did a poor job of communicating. If a baby is dead, it should just be delivered in what ever is the least stressful method for the mother. No pro-life organziation that I know of would object to the termination of that pregnancy, given the fact that the baby has passed away. And I know from personal experience that Catholic Hospitals, though 100% pro-life will help a woman in that scenario. that is what I was attempting to say.

Got it. My mistake.

[Smit]

If all indications are the baby is healthy and viable then a birth method that would provide the best chance of a healthy delivery should be the first optoin. If that is a C section then sure.

The woman has carried the baby for that long so it's likely she wants a healthy baby from the ordeal.

Is that logical?

[CNCAppsJames]

The pro-death crowd ALWAYS brings up 2 "small" percentage issues and only 1 that truly merits discussion
What about;
1) Rape
2) Incest
3) Mother's life is in danger

1 and 2 are such a statistically insignificant  situation in the overall abortion numbers yet it gets people all up in a lather.

3. Even the majority of Pro-Life people agree this is a valid reason to end the life of a baby.


The harsh, undeniable reality of abortion is that it IS used as a method of birth control or eugenics. If you cannot believe or accept that fact, you should REALLY look into the numbers a little deeper. What I have said all along is leet's deal with the 90+% FIRST, then deal with the other 10-ish%. The pro-death crowd ain't having none of that. And that os where the debate sits... for the rest of eternity. If you are for ending innocent human life at least own it.

[beej]

If all indications are the baby is healthy and viable then a birth method that would provide the best chance of a healthy delivery should be the first optoin. If that is a C section then sure.

The woman has carried the baby for that long so it's likely she wants a healthy baby from the ordeal.

Is that logical?

Yes!

Is this bill objectionable? and if so, what makes it objectionable?

Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (09/13/2022)

Protecting Pain-Capable Unborn Children from Late-Term Abortions Act

This bill establishes a new criminal offense for performing or attempting to perform an abortion if the probable gestational age of the fetus is 15 weeks or more.

A violator is subject to criminal penalties—a fine, a prison term of up to five years, or both.

The bill provides exceptions for an abortion (1) that is necessary to save the life of the pregnant woman, or (2) when the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. A physician who performs or attempts to perform an abortion under an exception must comply with specified requirements.

A woman who undergoes a prohibited abortion may not be prosecuted for violating or conspiring to violate the provisions of this bill.

[neurosis]

The pro-death crowd ALWAYS brings up 2 "small" percentage issues and only 1 that truly merits discussion
What about;

There is also drug related pregnancies where the woman isn't responsible enough or doesn't want the child.

People in abusive relationships (including sexual) where unwanted children can be born in to a cycle of abuse that can go on for generations.

People who are too poor to raise a kid (and nobody want's to support them)

I know that people can have children and then adopt them out, but how often does that really happen? How many children end up in shit homes with irresponsible parents who don't want them? I also know that these aren't reasons that you would find acceptable for terminating a pregnancy.

Then for @beej, the ethical dilemma. Since we're throwing out hypotheticals. If you knew a child was going to be born in to an abusive family and have to endure a life of misery possibly affecting the rest of their life in to adulthood, but the mother has the option for early termination, is it ethical to condemn the child to that life?

[mowens]

Yes!

Is this bill objectionable? and if so, what makes it objectionable?

Are there any special circumstances allowed for in it?
I would object if it were an absolute ban.

[beej]

There is also drug related pregnancies where the woman isn't responsible enough or doesn't want the child.

People in abusive relationships (including sexual) where unwanted children can be born in to a cycle of abuse that can go on for generations.

People who are too poor to raise a kid (and nobody want's to support them)

I know that people can have children and then adopt them out, but how often does that really happen? How many children end up in shit homes with irresponsible parents who don't want them? I also know that these aren't reasons that you would find acceptable for terminating a pregnancy.

Then for @beej, the ethical dilemma. Since we're throwing out hypotheticals. If you knew a child was going to be born in to an abusive family and have to endure a life of misery possibly affecting the rest of their life in to adulthood, but the mother has the option for early termination, is it ethical to condemn the child to that life?

As opposed to condemning them to death? yes!

and here's why?
1) in what other scenario would you condemn the victim to death?

2) There is resilience in the human psyche. I have first hand knowledge of people who grew up in horrible circumstances and still managed to find joy, not only in those circumstances but later on when they grew up. Now, I get that, that is anecdotal. And that some people in those same circumstances grow up in a life of misery and never escape it. But how do we say, during a person's earliest days, that their life will not be worth living? Let's look at Stephen Hawking. If we had known at his birth how hard his life would be, should we have stopped it in the 4th month of pregnancy?

3) Misery is subjective. How do you define it? Since suffering is something that we are all subjected to in one form or another, what constitutes a misery that is not worth living. I'm certain that you could look at some horrible life and say, "Do you see that?" Even if I agree that the example you show is horrific, you would still have to draw a line in the suffering sand and say any point beyond this is too much for a person to have to endure. And once you remove the people from the other side of the line, now the people on the near side of the line become the new point of reference for what is the most intolerable suffering allowed. which causes you to move the line closer to your own acceptable level of suffering. And that could keep going and going until hangnails are the most dreaded suffering of all.

[beej]

Are there any special circumstances allowed for in it?
I would object if it were an absolute ban.

it allowed for exceptions, endangerment to the life of the mother, rape and incest.

[beej]

I know that people can have children and then adopt them out, but how often does that really happen?

Oh my gosh! Maybe it's just because I'm in a church community, or maybe it's because we have so many adopted kids in my extended family as well as my own daughter, but I know so many people that are adopted. I wouldn't know where to start in telling you how common it is. But so many have to go overseas to adopt, which is a lot more expensive than adopting locally but it's not easy to find local children to adopt.

[neurosis]

Misery is subjective. How do you define it?

I would say that someone beating the hell out of you and your mother in to your teenage years is pretty miserable? 

it allowed for exceptions, endangerment to the life of the mother, rape and incest.

That is better than a lot I've listened to on the subject.  To me, those should just be a given.

I look at it this way, and I know this isn't going to be popular. Unless I'm willing to pay for someone's unwanted child, it's not my place to force them to have it. Something tells me that more people who can't afford to work around loopholes are going to be stuck with babies they can't afford and someone is going to have to pay for them? 

Obviously this is within reason. This is where we start having the "how many weeks" discussion.   

I don't consider myself a supporter of abortion as much as I do a supporter of the rights of the mother.  I know that gets in to a nasty debate. I would never EVER ask someone to get an abortion. 

[beej]

I would say that someone beating the hell out of you and your mother in to your teenage years is pretty miserable?

I would agree. But I have to ask, how is that person's life today?

my mother was sexually abused repeatedly as a child. but she married a good man in my father. That abuse haunted her, her whole life. I'm just now thinking about that because of your post, but she was staunchly pro-life. I never put the 2 things together before. Through all that, she still thought life was worth it.

[CNCAppsJames]

There are more people waiting to adopt children than there are available children. It's a fact.

We can all come up with a million scenarios, but rhe fact of the matter is the #1 cause of unwanted pregnancies is lack of personal responsibility. It's not drugs, it's not abuse, it's not rape, it's not Incest. It is an unwillingness to behave in a responsible manner and refusal to accept the repercussions of poor life choices.

[SuperHoneyBadger]

We can all come up with a million scenarios, but rhe fact of the matter is the #1 cause of unwanted pregnancies is lack of personal responsibility.

"It only happens one way." - My Gramma

She had the contraception talk with me before I was 10. She was in public health, low income both urban and rural, and it was a fact of life about what she dealt with at work. It always stuck with me, and I never understood the people around me taking the risk 'because it felt good'.

[neurosis]

I would agree. But I have to ask, how is that person's life today?

My ethical question is from my own life experience. Not necessarily me personally, but the people I was raised with. Most of them are in prison, dead, or drug addicts.

Every time my Cousin gets out of prison or jail, the first thing he does is go steal my aunts car and as much money as he can get so he can go out and get more drugs. I don't think he stays out of the street for more than a couple of months at a time.

[Incogneeto]

Oh my gosh! Maybe it's just because I'm in a church community, or maybe it's because we have so many adopted kids in my extended family as well as my own daughter, but I know so many people that are adopted. I wouldn't know where to start in telling you how common it is. But so many have to go overseas to adopt, which is a lot more expensive than adopting locally but it's not easy to find local children to adopt.

My Neice has 3