New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen

[ghuns]

...Things aren't looking up.

Unless you're a fetus.

[Matthew Hajicek]

Sound like a catch 22 scenario.  The people who support gun rights are the same who live by the 'pull yourself up by your boot straps' mantra.  There is never going to be an agreement on how to make peoples lives better. That, and our government is so corrupt that neither side wants to see that happen. So what's the alternative or how do you make that happen?

Some who support gun rights are the same who live by the 'pull yourself up by your boot straps' mantra.  Believe it or not, there are Democrats, independents, and others who also support gun rights.

If we were living in the 19th century, I would be a strict constitutionalist and anti-authoritarian.  But in the present day, and as a futurist and transhumanist, the old method of each person supporting themselves through their labor is unsustainable.  We need a much smaller number of much higher skilled workers to design, setup, operate, and maintain our automated systems, rather than a large amount of unskilled grunt labor to do the work directly.  So either a person meets that bar of skill, or one will be unemployed or underemployed.  At a minimum we'll need something like UBI, as many jobs are automated and obsoleted.

Ludd was early.

[gcode]

So either a person meets that bar of skill, or one will be unemployed or underemployed.  At a minimum we'll need something like UBI, as many jobs are automated and obsoleted.

none of the first tier nations have a birthrate (2.1 children per female) that will sustain their populations
Between the use of birth control and birth control via abortion, many populations are no longer sustainable.
Russia and Japan are the worst, but all of Western Europe and the US are on the same path.
The average Russian woman has 7 abortions in her lifetime... and Japan is already facing critical shortages
of working age people.
I've read that China is fast approaching a demographic cliff as well.
Due to their One Child laws and gender based selective abortions the male/female ration in China is about
one female for every 8 males.

[Matthew Hajicek]

none of the first tier nations have a birthrate (2.1 children per female) that will sustain their populations
...

Be that as it may, there's only a certain amount of production per capita that's strictly necessary.  Anything beyond that is luxury to varying degree, and therefore not worth as much.  Productivity per unit labor has been skyrocketing since the 70's, and pay per unit productivity drops as the inverse, or slightly more-so.  That will remain true even if populations diminish.  Japan is investing heavily into automation of labor, even developing robot nurses and convenience store clerks.  The question of how the less skilled, less educated will support themselves remains.

Will society support them as they are, will society assist them in becoming more educated and skilled (which requires significant assistance beginning at birth), or will they be left destitute and desperate?  Desperate people are dangerous.

[beej]

Sound like a catch 22 scenario.  The people who support gun rights are the same who live by the 'pull yourself up by your boot straps' mantra.  There is never going to be an agreement on how to make peoples lives better. That, and our government is so corrupt that neither side wants to see that happen. So what's the alternative or how do you make that happen?

I never hear conservatives say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" I hear democrats say that republicans say that. 

If people want to make their lives better it's not that hard. statistics say that if you finish high school, get at least 2 more years of education after that, wait to have children until you are married, and keep free from drug or alcohol addictions, you will be in better financial shape than your parents were.

[gcode]

Be that as it may, there's only a certain amount of production per capita that's strictly necessary.  Anything beyond that is luxury to varying degree, and therefore not worth as much.

In Japan, one of the critical shortages is nursing home staff
As a race, Japanese are very healthy and an above average percentage of them live into their 90's and 100's
There are not nearly enough young people available to staff nursing homes.
We are a long way from a world where nursing care is handled by robots and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live in that world.

[beej]

Be that as it may, there's only a certain amount of production per capita that's strictly necessary.  Anything beyond that is luxury to varying degree, and therefore not worth as much.  Productivity per unit labor has been skyrocketing since the 70's, and pay per unit productivity drops as the inverse, or slightly more-so.  That will remain true even if populations diminish.  Japan is investing heavily into automation of labor, even developing robot nurses and convenience store clerks.  The question of how the less skilled, less educated will support themselves remains.

Will society support them as they are, will society assist them in becoming more educated and skilled (which requires significant assistance beginning at birth), or will they be left destitute and desperate?  Desperate people are dangerous.

the flaw in your argument is that you are only using manufacturing to your equation. There is also the service industry.  electricians, construction, repair, retail, financial, recreation, etc.

[JParis]

I never hear conservatives say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" I hear democrats say that republicans say that. 

If people want to make their lives better it's not that hard. statistics say that if you finish high school, get at least 2 more years of education after that, wait to have children until you are married, and keep free from drug or alcohol addictions, you will be in better financial shape than your parents were.

Welp, threw that playbook out the window...and I've been doing better than my parents did for 25 years....

I wrote about my path in another thread...suffice to say...yeah, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps...

If I can do, anyone can do it...they have to want though....and most would prefer to piss & moan...

[Matthew Hajicek]

the flaw in your argument is that you are only using manufacturing to your equation. There is also the service industry.  electricians, construction, repair, retail, financial, recreation, etc.

I already mentioned those.  The service industry is by definition luxury.  Labor used to be 98% agricultural, then down to a few percent agricultural and mostly industrial.  Now that industry is automating, can we maintain an economy on 98% service industry?  Even the service industry is becoming automated.

Packages are beginning to be delivered by drones, homes beginning to be 3D printed, most retail is online ordering, and even brick and mortar stores are beginning to be automated.  Accountants and other financial workers are being replaced by software.  Most recreation is online.  Yes, there's still quite some ways to go, but once that service industry is 98% automated, what's left for people to do for money?  Can we have 90% of the population earn a living by being a YouTube personality?  Even that is susceptible to automation; in another few decades you'll be able to tell the computer what you want to watch and it will generate a photorealistic video on the fly.

[Matthew Hajicek]

In Japan, one of the critical shortages is nursing home staff
As a race, Japanese are very healthy and an above average percentage of them live into their 90's and 100's
There are not nearly enough young people available to staff nursing homes.
We are a long way from a world where nursing care is handled by robots and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live in that world.

Can a poor, uneducated American get a job as a Japanese nurse?  Seems unlikely.

[Matthew Hajicek]

statistics say that if you finish high school, get at least 2 more years of education after that, wait to have children until you are married, and keep free from drug or alcohol addictions, you will be in better financial shape than your parents were.

Statistics say if you're born to well-off parents and attend a decent school, you can do well in life.

On the other hand, if you're born into a broken family and attend an underfunded inner-city school, chances are you'll never get anywhere no matter how hard you try.  Many of those students don't even learn to read.  Is that the fault of the student, or their environment?

[neurosis]

I never hear conservatives say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" I hear democrats say that republicans say that. 

Really beej? Because I've literally seen people (I wont name names) say that verbatim on the EMC O/T forum.  But it doesn't have to be verbatim. It can be implied in the context of a conversation.  I've been in arguments on the other forum over this exact thing. 

If people want to make their lives better it's not that hard. statistics say that if you finish high school, get at least 2 more years of education after that, wait to have children until you are married, and keep free from drug or alcohol addictions, you will be in better financial shape than your parents were.

No disagreement there. But we all don't come from the same backgrounds or have the same opportunities.  People who come from more complicated backgrounds have to work harder and be more focused to dig themselves out. It's easier to get trapped.

[beej]

I already mentioned those.  The service industry is by definition luxury.  Labor used to be 98% agricultural, then down to a few percent agricultural and mostly industrial.  Now that industry is automating, can we maintain an economy on 98% service industry?  Even the service industry is becoming automated.

Packages are beginning to be delivered by drones, homes beginning to be 3D printed, most retail is online ordering, and even brick and mortar stores are beginning to be automated.  Accountants and other financial workers are being replaced by software.  Most recreation is online.  Yes, there's still quite some ways to go, but once that service industry is 98% automated, what's left for people to do for money?  Can we have 90% of the population earn a living by being a YouTube personality?  Even that is susceptible to automation; in another few decades you'll be able to tell the computer what you want to watch and it will generate a photorealistic video on the fly.

at that point a lot of the people, will be working in greenhouses on Mars.

[beej]

Really beej? Because I've literally seen people (I wont name names) say that verbatim on the EMC O/T forum.  But it doesn't have to be verbatim. It can be implied in the context of a conversation.  I've been in arguments on the other forum over this exact thing. 

No disagreement there. But we all don't come from the same backgrounds or have the same opportunities.  People who come from more complicated backgrounds have to work harder and be more focused to dig themselves out. It's easier to get trapped.

ok so, maybe not verbatim but in context? I'm pretty sure every body is aware that it's an impossibility to actually pull yourself up by your bootstraps. So when people say that what do they mean? "Work hard and do what you can to help yourself." Every single person in this country has an opportunity for an education. not all educations are equal but they are adequate even in the worst schools if a person has a desire for betterment.

a young black man born to a single mother in the inner city can graduate highschool, get a job with UPS and make $36 an hour with great benefits. (I just use that example because that's the story of a friend of mine). Is that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, I don't think so. It's just taking advantage of the opportunities given. Now, that doesn't make him some upperclass elitist, but he has done better than his parent did. And that is something. that is upward mobility.

[neurosis]

 

Every single person in this country has an opportunity for an education

No they don't. Not an equal education anyway. We all have access to public education, but not all public education is equal.  I've been to both.  There is a huge difference.

We also don't have the same access to a college education.

a young black man born to a single mother in the inner city can graduate highschool, get a job with UPS and make $36 an hour with great benefits. (I just use that example because that's the story of a friend of mine). Is that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, I don't think so. It's just taking advantage of the opportunities given. Now, that doesn't make him some upperclass elitist, but he has done better than his parent did. And that is something. that is upward mobility.

That is literally the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story. It's just not that simple for everyone.

Some people have to start working before they're able to graduate from high school.  I don't know your background, but we obviously don't all come from the same. 

I was out collecting aluminum cans when I was 11 years old so I could buy shoes for school.  My cousin was robbing houses and selling drugs at 16. People see what ever path is easier for them.  Until you're in their shoes it's hard to say what you would do.  You can say that we all have the same opportunity but it's just not true. I certainly didn't have the same opportunity that my boss did. He inherited his position in life. The truth is that you can choose to try to work harder and dig yourself out, or become a victim of circumstance.